Punch-Drunk Love (2002) with Portia Barnett-Herrin

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Track 1: Back again with another film discussion from the left. You can support the show

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Track 1: at leftwithobjector.com.

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Track 1: The year was 2002.

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Track 1: CDs remained the dominant form of music, making up 90% of the market.

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Track 1: The PlayStation 2 was released. The economy in the United States and abroad

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Track 1: was in flux due to the aftermath of 9-11 and subsequent wars in the Middle East.

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Track 1: This same year, director Paul Thomas Anderson releases the film up for discussion

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Track 1: today, Punch Drunk Love. after a brief three-year hiatus since his previous film, Magnolia.

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Track 1: Rather than making a three-hour film, which was unfairly compared to Shortcuts,

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Track 1: he made a 95-minute film starring Adam Sandler, Emily Watson,

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Track 1: and Philip Seymour Hoffman.

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Track 1: With me to discuss this artful masterpiece is writer-director Portia.

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Track 1: Thank you for being here today.

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Track 2: My pleasure. Thank you.

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Track 1: Yes, of course. And I guess before we maybe talk about why you selected this,

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Track 1: I don't know if you want to, fully up to you, if you want to share kind of any

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Track 1: of your work or anything that people could find you online or, you know, any of those.

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Track 2: I'm a writer director and I also

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Track 2: coach other creatives and so that actually the easiest place to find me is either

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Track 2: on threads which is how we connected or my business is called new woo um n-e-w-w-o-o

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Track 2: dot uk and that's where all the coaching stuff runs through perfect.

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Track 1: And we'll put a link in the thing below where everyone can can check that out

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Track 1: but we yeah we said we We connected on threads and then I reached out and I

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Track 1: sent you a list of films, but I think I had it.

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Track 1: So this is actually the first Paul Thomas Anderson film I've covered,

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Track 1: which is kind of hard to believe.

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Track 1: No one has chosen one, but you chose pretty quickly to do this film, Prunch Drunk Love.

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Track 1: So I'm curious what your maybe relationship with this film and then maybe like

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Track 1: tendentially the like Adam Sandler, Paul Thomas Anderson. And I know Adam Sandler

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Track 1: is not really a feature amongst his films, but he's in this one.

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Track 2: Yes, he certainly is. I can't remember when I first saw this film.

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Track 2: I feel like it was definitely a few years after it came out.

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Track 2: I hadn't loved Magnolia. I need to watch it again. But it hadn't,

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Track 2: like, I hadn't adored it, basically.

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Track 2: And I think it did divide audiences for the most part.

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Track 2: But I adore this movie and I loved it when I watched it for the first time and

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Track 2: I've watched it maybe five or six times since.

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Track 2: I find it highly watchable and I love PTA's work, but watchable isn't always

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Track 2: a word I could use to describe his movies.

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Track 2: Some are much more accessible than others.

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Track 2: But there's something really, really simple about this.

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Track 2: And also, I love rom-coms.

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Track 2: I'm fascinated by it as a genre. And I recognize rom-coms as something that

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Track 2: starts with screwball comedy, which is also something I love.

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Track 2: And I think that this sits in that genre, but also obviously subverts a lot

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Track 2: of the expectations of it.

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Track 2: And I think it's a profoundly elegant piece of work. as well as actually being quite funny.

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Track 1: Yes. Well, I mean, we'll certainly talk about some of the throwing bits of sort

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Track 1: of, I won't call them trivia, like notes about the film.

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Track 1: But one of the things I wanted to mention before I maybe kind of give my brief

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Track 1: history on the film, too, is I want to shout out another podcast who's been

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Track 1: on this podcast, I've been on theirs, called Altmania.

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Track 1: And they did an entire series on every film from Paul Thomas Anderson, including this one.

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Track 1: And they have they go deeper into like

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Track 1: his work and sort of the history and so i'm not gonna we're probably not

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Track 1: gonna do as much of that today so i would definitely recommend anyone

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Track 1: to check out that podcast and that episode in particular

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Track 1: is uh is quite good so i just wanted to mention

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Track 1: that here and then for me too i didn't see this movie until

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Track 1: at least four or five years after it

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Track 1: came out and i remember not loving it

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Track 1: but not like thinking it was you know a bad film and

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Track 1: maybe just my place the time when i watched it sort

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Track 1: of my how i was watching film at

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Track 1: the time and i also just watched re-watched

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Track 1: uh um magnolia about

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Track 1: a week ago and i liked it a lot more than i had remembered

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Track 1: liking it so it is worth i would recommend going back and

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Track 1: checking it out again i think it's it's maybe not as

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Track 1: accessible and watchable you know three hours and five minutes versus.

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Track 1: This is 95 minutes and i just think this film

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Track 1: is like a i think i put in the notes it's like kind of a work of

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Track 1: art so much different than any of his three

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Track 1: previous films like boogie nights heart eight magnolia all were

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Track 1: more personal and more you know somewhat

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Track 1: historical boogie nights you know has his historical kind of play in it or this

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Track 1: is just like a subversive rom-com that has some of the most beautiful cinematography

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Track 1: and music and acting performances and having people say like oh adam sandler can really act yeah.

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Track 2: Yeah i i wonder if it is personal i haven't done the timeline snooping i haven't

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Track 2: like formed a theory about whether it actually is about paul thomas anderson's

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Track 2: relationship with maya rudolph um,

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Track 2: that's their business you know i feel like i want to be respectful of that but,

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Track 2: i wondered when i re-watched it recently i wondered how personal it was yeah

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Track 2: because i think that like the phantom thread i think i think in general if you are a writer director,

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Track 2: the work is deeply personal even if it can't be read as such even if it's not obvious true.

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Track 1: Yeah or actually i was even considering i think they mentioned this in that

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Track 1: other podcast is that But if anything, I almost would see it more as part of

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Track 1: his relationship with Fiona Apple,

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Track 1: which apparently was a very messy relationship since then. Fiona Apple has come out since then.

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Track 1: So I wondered if it was more about that because he apparently could get violent,

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Track 1: not necessarily towards her, but just kind of be having these outbursts and

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Track 1: maybe choosing Adam Sandler,

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Track 1: which I think we should also talk about as his history and like some of his

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Track 1: other movies where he can be violent.

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Track 1: But also like Hidden has like underneath peel back the onion and he's kind of like a sweet person.

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Track 1: And I think that's kind of like the Adam Sandler character in this.

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Track 1: He has these outbursts, but he is like a deeply sweet person underneath.

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Track 2: Absolutely. And very lonely.

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Track 1: Yeah. I wrote lonely in my notes. I can't tell you how many times.

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Track 2: Yeah. And he says it. He says it when he calls the call girl, I think.

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Track 1: Yeah.

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Track 2: That he gets lonely and wants to talk to someone. And I think that it's maybe

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Track 2: beyond or deeper than loneliness he's alienated.

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Track 2: And you can speculate as to whether he alienated himself or the world alienated him or a bit of both.

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Track 2: But he he part

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Track 2: of his sweetness and part of what makes the performance so compelling and the

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Track 2: movie so watchable in my opinion is what a performance he's doing the character

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Track 2: is is giving and trying to make it work like trying to make his communication

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Track 2: work trying to make the relationships,

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Track 2: work the way that he thinks they're supposed to work

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Track 2: when they're clearly not working um it's like even the way that he speaks to

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Track 2: his employees and and then he's like remember to remember that I want to tell

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Track 2: you about the guy in Toledo and he's he's doing a performance of a of a boss and um,

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Track 2: It's funny and it's painful for him, but it's funny for us, which is the definition

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Track 2: of a lot of comedy, especially Adam's on the comedy.

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Track 1: Yeah. And it's, I think one of the things that I noticed when I watch it,

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Track 1: maybe more this time in general, is he deeply wants to fit in to society as a whole.

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Track 1: And maybe, as you say, it's a performance for him to be able to do it.

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Track 1: He doesn't actually fit in.

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Track 1: He's pretending. like his conversations with like the customers

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Track 1: where you don't actually see their faces you just kind of see the behind

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Track 1: the point of views from behind his customers like you're watching him

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Track 1: perform a customer call and

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Track 1: then constantly like 10 you know a bunch of his sisters

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Track 1: are calling and it's you know very funny but he

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Track 1: clearly has no way to fit in to society he doesn't know how to like his sisters

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Track 1: also mentioned like he never like they want him to come to this birthday party

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Track 1: but he doesn't go out ever it seems like they make it seem like he doesn't leave

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Track 1: his house ever except to go to work and go home and go to work and go to home he's you know.

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Track 2: Yeah yeah i mean i think that the film is a fantasy um it's a like very tight couple of days in its,

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Track 2: in his time period and it's you just,

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Track 2: it's grounded in some ways but in other ways it is just a fantasy that exists on its own terms,

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Track 2: um so time and space

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Track 2: don't actually behave in a normal

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Track 2: way like he just he appears

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Track 2: in Hawaii and says take me to where the beaches

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Track 2: and hotels are and and that's right

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Track 2: you know like Hawaii is it's not logical and it's

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Track 2: the same when he um and

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Track 2: I think actually on this re-watch I realized that one of the things he does

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Track 2: with the moving watercolors the like arty colorful things that happen in three

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Track 2: interludes is the third one allows Adam Sana's character to suddenly appear here in Utah.

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Track 1: Yes with.

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Track 2: With the phone.

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Track 1: Oh yeah we'll definitely talk about the phone the phone thing is um.

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Track 2: And so you know that's it's not an ungrounded piece of work but it has its it

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Track 2: has it completely has its own like logic in terms of time and time and space

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Track 2: and and the suit you know the suit remains,

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Track 2: immaculate the whole time so

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Track 2: it's not reality reality there's there's some parts of it aren't logical.

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Track 1: It's it's funny you mentioned that i actually i watched

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Track 1: this movie i don't know a year and a half ago just as

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Track 1: a rewind it's been a while since i've seen it and i actually thought

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Track 1: as i was watching it like is this actually is his

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Track 1: relationship with watson actually real or

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Track 1: is this simply a like a dream fantasy he's

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Track 1: having of like wanting a relationship with someone and so

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Track 1: in my head i was like is that all is all of

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Track 1: that just kind of not happening because all the times he's in

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Track 1: the hallways and the colors he goes through the when he flies to hawaii too

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Track 1: it kind of seems like it's magical like is this real and i guess you could in

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Track 1: a reading say it's it's not like that's all kind of a fantasy but i like to

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Track 1: believe that adam sandler does find true love me too me too but.

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Track 2: But i think that that's that's why

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Track 2: it does this that's why this movie contributes something

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Track 2: to this genre of like love stories and

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Track 2: rom-coms um isn't that what

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Track 2: falling in love is like like isn't that what encountering someone who radically

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Track 2: changes you um for the maybe the better and the worse it's it's it's intoxicating

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Track 2: right like it impacts you on it on multiple levels and in ways that don't do and don't make sense.

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Track 1: Right that's true.

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Track 2: And that's why I find it romantic and funny.

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Track 1: Yeah. And the funny is such a different kind of humor.

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Track 1: And what's interesting is I've read some things that Paul Thomas Anderson had

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Track 1: watched, had like a big fan of Adam Sandler's like early work, you know, his films.

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Track 1: And I think preparing for this, he also went and sat in like the writer's room

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Track 1: at Saturday Night Live to kind of see, you know, kind of how he ticked and that kind of thing.

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Track 1: And uh him wanting to make a movie with adam sandler is is like both extremely funny but,

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Track 1: like a different director could have wanted to

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Track 1: make a serious movie with him and not nailed it

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Track 1: whereas he took him and like molded him

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Track 1: or i don't know maybe just deep down in adam sandler he has this

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Track 1: really good acting chops i mean he must i mean the performance

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Track 1: is pretty immaculate and i'm not sure what i'm trying to

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Track 1: say is just that it's kind of amazing that he brought him in to make this

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Track 1: movie and then just made like something that was so captivating and i wrote

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Track 1: in my notes too that like the art direction the soundtrack the directing the

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Track 1: acting is all so deeply in sync and it's so much different than his previous

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Track 1: three films before this boogie nights heart eight and then magnolia it's yeah.

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Track 2: Yeah it's yeah it's to me it's

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Track 2: choreographed the whole thing is choreographed and some

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Track 2: of it really all comes together in

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Track 2: time and it's like

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Track 2: it's it's like in sync it's like a symphony there's like accents and the background

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Track 2: moves and everything works together and then there are other moments where it

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Track 2: gets really choppy and the and I think that the score um there's a kind kind

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Track 2: of percussive score going on in the background,

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Track 2: which isn't the music music that has vocal.

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Track 2: And I think that that's.

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Track 2: Adam sandler's inner world yeah how

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Track 2: he feels and and so he's experiencing

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Track 2: extreme like tension or uh

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Track 2: chaos internally even if even if externally

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Track 2: not that much is happening it becomes very pressured for

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Track 2: him but i think just going back to your point about was

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Track 2: there always a great performer in there i think

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Track 2: that anyone who does

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Track 2: comedy and anyone who does stand up has a

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Track 2: tremendous sensitivity um to response

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Track 2: to timing and like these are things that you're seeing played out with great

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Track 2: direction and in a very specific character but of course those have to be there

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Track 2: for anyone to weather the storm of certainly any stand-up comedy,

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Track 2: but definitely Saturday Night Life.

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Track 1: Yeah, that's true. Especially, you know, I think in a lot of his earlier films,

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Track 1: I suspect there's also lots of improv and like, you know, being able to kind

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Track 1: of do something unexpected.

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Track 1: I'm sure that a lot of, I don't know the history of a lot of the early films,

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Track 1: but I would imagine a lot of them are, you know, ad-libbed and that kind of thing.

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Track 1: And so, yeah, I would agree that his history of like, because I think you've

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Track 1: said a few times that this film is like kind of a comedy, but it's like a different

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Track 1: kind of comedy in some weird way.

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Track 1: Like it's, and sometimes you...

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Track 1: Want to laugh but you're not necessarily laughing at

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Track 1: the expense of adam sandler's character which is

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Track 1: another thing i like i noticed it's like people are sort of ribbing on him and

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Track 1: mostly his sisters and giving him a lot of hard time but you don't like you're

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Track 1: not laughing at him you're kind of like laughing with his idiosyncrasies and

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Track 1: these like weird moments where you're not he's not like the butt of the joke i guess yeah.

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Track 2: I agree you're not if anything you feel for him if anything you feel like mild

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Track 2: embarrassment to major cringe.

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Track 1: On his behalf yes um.

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Track 2: And yeah it doesn't have overt jokes um i think that there are there are moments

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Track 2: that kind of function as punch lines because of the way that everything's been

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Track 2: choreographed around it So like when the little piano arrives in the office,

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Track 2: it's like there's a culmination where his, I forget the name of the actor who

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Track 2: plays his like second in command.

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Track 2: But there's this beautiful scene which is really orchestrated where he shows

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Track 2: him the little piano and the guy says, what's it doing here?

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Track 2: And adam sandler like backs out of the backs out of the office and i could say

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Track 2: a lot of things about like planes of movement and how i think this movie is constructed but,

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Track 2: he backs out a bunch of things happen like the music peaks like just as he turns

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Track 2: around and looks at the camera or we see his face and he says i don't know and,

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Track 2: It's like, I think that the piano arriving unexpectedly is love appearing in

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Track 2: your life, like in a strange way.

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Track 2: I mean, and I don't think that I don't think you have to read this movie on

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Track 2: a deep level, but you can, which is part of what's so enjoyable about it for me.

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Track 1: I like that reading of the piano that way.

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Track 2: Yeah. And he doesn't understand it, but he and he like does a lot of running

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Track 2: with it, like picks it. So that's funny.

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Track 2: That's funny. Him picking up in his suit, knowing what we know about him,

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Track 2: him picking up a mini piano and running with it multiple times.

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Track 2: For me, that's where the comedy lies.

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Track 2: And the comedy also is very physical.

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Track 2: It's very slapstick. A lot of things get smashed in this movie.

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Track 2: There's a lot of smashing.

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Track 1: Well sorry he runs a lot of different times in the food in the in the.

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Track 2: Film he.

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Track 1: Runs away from the like the the men from utah they're coming to beat him up

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Track 1: he runs to like down the hallway,

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Track 1: lots of the running is very funny to me i think that's the cover of the is that

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Track 1: the cover of the hit of the of the i don't remember now if it's.

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Track 2: Him the only thing i remember is the when they're

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Track 2: kissing in silhouette i feel like that's like the main artwork yeah i think

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Track 2: the poster maybe they kid the silhouette and there's all the people walking

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Track 2: back and forth um and i but i think that the things also just crash um like

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Track 2: people's chairs collapse underneath them,

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Track 2: the novelty the novelty toilet brush the non-smashable one does smash which

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Track 2: is really funny and then later in the scene in the background one of the employees

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Track 2: is it's like testing it vigorously testing other ones um also.

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Track 1: The the the forklift crashes.

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Track 2: And a bunch.

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Track 1: Of boxes fall down.

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Track 2: Yeah and that's i think that's where the comedy lies and i also think that that

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Track 2: may it's interesting like where your imagination goes i think,

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Track 2: I wonder what Paul Thomas Anderson had to say to convince, did he have to convince Sarnler to do it?

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Track 2: Like, was it clear from the script what movie it was going to be?

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Track 2: And because I associate people hurting themselves and people falling over and

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Track 2: people smashing into things with Adam Sarnler comedy.

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Track 1: Yeah, I mean, you think about when, like, you think about films that came out

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Track 1: before, like, I think I mentioned Happy Gilmore too.

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Track 1: But I think in The Wedding Singer, which is also one of Paul Thomas Anderson's,

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Track 1: I think one of his favorite, that and I think Big Daddy were like two influences

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Track 1: on how he wrote the script for this.

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Track 1: And also those films have like a side of him that I think is actually shows

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Track 1: that he has the ability to act in a more dramatic way than just,

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Track 1: you know, being kind of the funny guy.

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Track 1: But he's like yelling in those films breaking things so he clearly i

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Track 1: don't know i i think that he had an

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Track 1: idea for the film and just knew that adam sandler would be the person

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Track 1: to be able to do it yeah uh and yeah

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Track 1: and um and i think you mentioned too the music also

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Track 1: crashes and has those crescendos in

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Track 1: a similar way that those things breaking do

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Track 1: but not in the same times and i think you mentioned something just a

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Track 1: few minutes ago about how like that's the inner sort of

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Track 1: inside of aunt sandler's head and that's also i wrote

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Track 1: noted that down that like his head is a complete mess

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Track 1: of chaos and it's not until he like finds

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Track 1: a piano where he's like trying to learn how to play it and he meets emily watson

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Track 1: and he can like actually finally like settle things down like when he's with

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Track 1: her the music isn't like that like when they're together he's it's not like

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Track 1: that it's when he's trying to get back to her or things around him are just

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Track 1: kind of just swirling i guess I think it's.

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Track 2: I think I haven't studied it like scene by scene, but my guess would be that

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Track 2: would occur after they've kissed.

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Track 2: I think when she first arrives, especially with the second time she comes in

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Track 2: with the sister, I think that the percussion is going wild.

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Track 1: Yes. Probably like it's heart or something, right?

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Track 2: Yeah. And I think I realized what I was trying to say before about performance, which is that,

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Track 2: And whether you perceive or like describe his performance in previous movies

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Track 2: as quote serious or not, what I think can't be underestimated is the commitment.

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Track 1: Yes.

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Track 2: It's the commitment to the straight man in the comedy or the commitment to the

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Track 2: person with the unusual characteristic, whatever it is, that is consistent in

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Track 2: all of his performances. Yeah.

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Track 2: Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. Or just because it looks easy

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Track 2: to him, it doesn't mean everyone can do that.

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Track 1: No, I mean, I think his those performances in those films, like in his early

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Track 1: days, you know, the 90s and early 2000s.

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Track 1: Yes. And I think sometimes people like, oh, like he's just this,

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Track 1: you know, he's just doing funny comedy.

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Track 1: But I don't think there are very many actors that could pull off the performances

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Track 1: in most of those movies at all.

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Track 2: I agree.

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Track 1: And so and yeah, I think someone in the again, I'm going to reference that other

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Track 1: podcast. They talk about the scene, which I think this is one thread that goes through.

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Track 1: You mentioned like how he's holding the phone, but like phones in this film

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Track 1: are like extremely important.

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Track 1: And I tried to look up. I didn't get a chance to. It's like I wonder how cell

Speaker: 00:23:04

Track 1: phones were starting to become more commonplace.

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Track 1: Not like not everyone had a

Speaker: 00:23:09

Track 1: cell phone, but like maybe business people had them and things like that.

Speaker: 00:23:12

Track 1: But in this film, they use cordless phones like at his house and his apartment

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Track 1: and then the corded phones in his office and things like that.

Speaker: 00:23:19

Track 1: But the very first time I think you see the cordless phone is in his apartment

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Track 1: when he calls the call girl and he's talking to her and he's pacing around.

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Track 1: And they were talking about how incredible that entire scene is one single shot.

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Track 1: And to be able to pull that off as any actor would be really difficult.

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Track 1: And not only is that scene amazing and one of I think one of the best scenes

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Track 1: is just because he's the way he's recalling all this information.

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Track 1: He's moving back and forth. He's extremely nervous, but also extremely calm.

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Track 1: There isn't really any music going during that time, which also was notable to me.

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Track 1: And I don't know, that scene is just, I mean, that's also kind of like the scene

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Track 1: that sets off a lot of the, you know, trouble he has for the rest of the film.

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Track 2: And I think it's one of the first times you see the camera move that way.

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Track 2: I think the camera moves in that scene in a way that it hasn't up till then.

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Track 1: Yes.

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Track 2: It follows him and it,

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Track 2: again like I haven't I haven't done like a shot by shot breakdown but the first couple of scenes,

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Track 2: the camera moves but it moves in a very very steady way,

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Track 2: or in a very choreographed way round corners like it looks round the corner

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Track 2: onto the street and then it waits really patiently until the car crashes and

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Track 2: it does what it does throughout the movie which is it looks at things kind of,

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Track 2: What's the word I'm looking for?

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Track 1: Peripherally?

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Track 2: It's at a right angle.

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Track 1: Oh, okay.

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Track 2: It's tracking back and forth and sometimes curving around. But the scene where

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Track 2: he calls the call girl, it moves differently.

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Track 2: It moves, it follows him, basically, and it doesn't cut and...

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Track 2: Yeah, that's the anomaly. That's the thing that causes the ripple in the pond, so to speak.

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Track 1: Yeah, you feel like you're walking with him as the camera's moving around.

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Track 1: And also in those scenes, especially like the garage or their warehouse,

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Track 1: whatever you want to call it, they also seem to move like more sharply back and forth.

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Track 1: Like they have him in the office and then he moves over there.

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Track 1: And here he's like slowing down.

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Track 1: But he's already, at this point, he's already met, has he met Emily Watts?

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Track 2: Yeah.

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Track 1: Yeah, right. He meets us straight away. Right in the front scene,

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Track 1: yeah. And also the other camera shot that I love is when after the car crash

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Track 1: or the truck crash, they have the camera go in like all four directions in the street.

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Track 1: They just kind of like, it goes in all those and it's actually was like jarring

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Track 1: because none of the other shots in the film, like he just plays with so many

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Track 1: different angles in this, which is why in just including the music and the colors just,

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Track 1: you know, especially blue, like his suit's blue.

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Track 1: Like a lot of the color palette is blue shaded just like that's why i view it

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Track 1: as really not just like a film like there aren't many when i look at all of

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Track 1: his paul thomas anderson feel like this one is like the one where i say like

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Track 1: this is like a painting like a piece like a piece of art that i can hang.

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Track 2: On my.

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Track 1: Wall whereas the other ones are all great like you know there will be blood

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Track 1: and you know all the phantom thread like they have different aspects of them

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Track 1: but this one is like artful unlike.

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Track 2: Any of his others so yes i agree i

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Track 2: agree i think i think in general his work

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Track 2: especially the way that the way

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Track 2: that scenes are composed and shots are composed and i

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Track 2: think i'm probably thinking about the master more than anything else has

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Track 2: the ability to kind of reorganize something

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Track 2: in in my brain at least on a

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Track 2: weird unconscious level um and

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Track 2: that's the charge of his work which makes it kind of mysterious and very rich

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Track 2: and i think some people and can and can make it inaccessible depending on how

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Track 2: much you've surrendered to the movie yeah basically and um,

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Track 2: I like I really enjoy his work I like surrendering to it but for me there's

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Track 2: something here and it's I think it's really held by the sound by the music I think that that,

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Track 2: If you took away the music, I don't know if it would be enchanting.

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Track 2: I think it would still be really beautiful because it is undeniable,

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Track 2: the use of color and the use of light and dark as well.

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Track 2: There's just amazing, in those first, like the opening five,

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Track 2: ten minutes, where he moves out into the sunny light of the morning.

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Track 2: And then in moments he retreats into the shadow of the whatever it is his workshop

Speaker: 00:28:00

Track 2: his workplace um that's happening again and again the use of light and dark.

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Track 1: Yeah i wrote in my notes as that opening like that he keeps moving

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Track 1: like from within the darkness into the light but

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Track 1: he like can't stay in the light he has to keep retreating

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Track 1: and then i guess you could say like at the end he finally comes out

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Track 1: maybe completely like i think emily watson's hallway like

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Track 1: in her building is also extremely bright i mean you

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Track 1: never actually see the inside of her apartment you just see like the the doorway

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Track 1: but somehow like but then is he like retreating again i

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Track 1: don't know but um but to go back like briefly

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Track 1: to like the phones like what do you make of because we

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Track 1: talk about the so he has the scene with the call girl but then there's multiple other times

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Track 1: when he's using a phone and then especially later when he

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Track 1: goes to utah he literally is still holding the phone at

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Track 1: the hospital he's still holding the phone and then eventually he

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Track 1: just like gives it to someone and just like walks away and

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Track 1: somehow like i had i've seen

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Track 1: people have like different theories or just kind of different takes on it

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Track 1: in some ways like my idea was it's sort of like this object is

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Track 1: some kind of like comfort to him that he needs to he's always communicating

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Track 1: with his sisters and business people on the other line but now he finally doesn't

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Track 1: he found someone like in in real life you know he doesn't have to like communicate

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Track 1: that way but it's also like a comfort thing i don't know And I'm curious,

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Track 1: what do you think of the phone and if it is significant?

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Track 2: I mean, it must be. Or even if it's arbitrary, it's fine.

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Track 2: But I think it's a good point. I think there's comfort in it.

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Track 2: And also, what phones used to mean, what landlines used to mean.

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Track 1: Yeah.

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Track 2: They were so tactile. And...

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Track 2: Um you know like not

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Track 2: to go on too much of a tangent but that movie september 5th

Speaker: 00:29:53

Track 2: about the munich olympics is an amazing thriller that uses it uses inserts of

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Track 2: everything that's analog there's reels and cameras and phones there's a lot

Speaker: 00:30:05

Track 2: of buttons that get pushed and things that get slammed and i found that very

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Track 2: satisfying and very effective,

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Track 2: so yeah i think it's his i think it it's a comforting thing a telephone a plastic

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Track 2: phone you can hold in that way one thing i noticed that really stood out to

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Track 2: me is that it's the source of the threat as well as the source of potential

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Track 2: comfort but it's more a source of threat.

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Track 2: Um it's the sisters and then he uses

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Track 2: the phone obviously to call the call girl but then she threatens him

Speaker: 00:30:40

Track 2: down all the different phone lines got your

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Track 2: work number and early on he says do you want my house

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Track 2: number to a guy it's like in case of the times as the guy's like why would i

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Track 2: need to call you at home um so yeah this this lonely person yearning for communication

Speaker: 00:30:56

Track 2: has a strong relationship with phones but in the scene after he smashes up the

Speaker: 00:31:03

Track 2: bathroom in the restaurant,

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Track 2: and the waiter's like, I'm going to fucking crack your head in.

Speaker: 00:31:10

Track 2: It's like, I didn't do that. Just let me stay. Just let me stay.

Speaker: 00:31:14

Track 2: He drops her off at her apartment, and they have the awkward moment where he

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Track 2: shakes her hand, and it's that failure to do the thing you wanted to do at the

Speaker: 00:31:25

Track 2: end of the first date, and he leaves,

Speaker: 00:31:28

Track 2: and he speaks to himself, and he's obviously disappointed, And then when he

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Track 2: gets to the front door of the building,

Speaker: 00:31:36

Track 2: there's a woman on like reception.

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Track 2: She says, excuse me, sir, there's a phone call for you.

Speaker: 00:31:42

Track 2: And in that moment, when I rewatched it,

Speaker: 00:31:47

Track 2: And previously, whenever we first started talking about this, I saw it twice.

Speaker: 00:31:52

Track 2: In that moment, a tiny bit of fear appeared in my system. And I thought,

Speaker: 00:31:56

Track 2: shit, is it Georgia? Has she found him here?

Speaker: 00:32:00

Track 2: Because she's been harassing him on the phone, but of course it's not.

Speaker: 00:32:04

Track 2: And the voice says it's Lena. And then he relaxes.

Speaker: 00:32:09

Track 2: He's like, oh, who else would it possibly be on the phone?

Speaker: 00:32:13

Track 1: He probably thought it was going to be Georgia. like he'd already set himself

Speaker: 00:32:16

Track 1: up for disappointment he didn't have that yeah that that moment is like very

Speaker: 00:32:20

Track 1: like an exhale from the audience too and it's like so perfectly timed too he's

Speaker: 00:32:24

Track 1: like you know he's literally about to walk out the door and then i also love

Speaker: 00:32:28

Track 1: that he can't remember which apartment it is to go back it's so good yeah it's.

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Track 2: So good and it's it speaks to the the awkwardness of

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Track 2: those first dates that first contact

Speaker: 00:32:39

Track 2: which i love which is so usually like lost in in romantic comedies of some kind

Speaker: 00:32:46

Track 2: but i think it's kind of beautiful that her honesty comes her profound honesty

Speaker: 00:32:55

Track 2: appears like down a phone call in that moment.

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Track 1: Yeah and i think also to like

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Track 1: that awkwardness of like a first date or something he's he's

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Track 1: actually consistently lying to emily to

Speaker: 00:33:08

Track 1: uh emily watson's character like kind of a you know he doesn't

Speaker: 00:33:11

Track 1: come clean about the bathroom and the call girl and

Speaker: 00:33:14

Track 1: like eventually he finally does he realizes like i need to be honest with you

Speaker: 00:33:17

Track 1: but these early like sort of like little white lies like to try and get people

Speaker: 00:33:21

Track 1: to you know like you more it's clear that he has had no as we've said like no

Speaker: 00:33:25

Track 1: friends he doesn't have anyone else except for his sisters who just seem to

Speaker: 00:33:29

Track 1: annoy him he doesn't want to actually ever see them you know so i'm.

Speaker: 00:33:33

Track 2: Not sure but i mean but he but he goes to the party he doesn't not go so he

Speaker: 00:33:39

Track 2: does want to be there and he lies to the sister when he says when he starts

Speaker: 00:33:43

Track 2: feeling nervous he starts to,

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Track 2: he starts to bullshit in a way that's funny

Speaker: 00:33:49

Track 2: for us when he starts with the like gym membership and everyone can see everyone

Speaker: 00:33:53

Track 2: knows that it's a performance and it's not the truth um and I think that I think

Speaker: 00:34:01

Track 2: we have to talk about Emily Watson's performance because she's spectacular in this and I buy it.

Speaker: 00:34:08

Track 2: I buy it the whole way that she is...

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Track 2: Um that she is attracted to

Speaker: 00:34:15

Track 2: him and curious about him and can also see him that she's not delusional she's

Speaker: 00:34:22

Track 2: like you are a strange person but yet i am i'm into you and yeah it's a it's

Speaker: 00:34:31

Track 2: a beautiful performance.

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Track 1: Yeah and i saw one of the on the on the

Speaker: 00:34:35

Track 1: um criterion blu-ray there's a um there aren't a

Speaker: 00:34:38

Track 1: lot of interviews a lot too many special features but one of them is an interview

Speaker: 00:34:41

Track 1: that they gave at con when it was released at

Speaker: 00:34:44

Track 1: the festival and like before it was released broadly

Speaker: 00:34:47

Track 1: and they asked uh they interviewed

Speaker: 00:34:50

Track 1: each of them but one of the ones i thought was interesting is when they ask her

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Track 1: uh emily watson sort of like you know how she

Speaker: 00:34:56

Track 1: came on this role and sort of like what the what was work like working with

Speaker: 00:34:59

Track 1: paul thomas anderson and he apparently he told her or

Speaker: 00:35:01

Track 1: she said that he told her to kind of like act less

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Track 1: almost like do less than you normally do and be

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Track 1: less dramatic and just kind of i don't i don't

Speaker: 00:35:11

Track 1: want to say play it straight but just kind of tone it

Speaker: 00:35:14

Track 1: down and she she almost it almost like is toned down to

Speaker: 00:35:17

Track 1: the point where like it is obviously still acting but it's

Speaker: 00:35:19

Track 1: like to the point where you do believe it is she just

Speaker: 00:35:22

Track 1: kind of this very calm measured person because

Speaker: 00:35:25

Track 1: if she had been anything more dramatic it doesn't really work with adam sandler's

Speaker: 00:35:29

Track 1: being very chaotic like it's almost like she's like the calmness that he needs

Speaker: 00:35:35

Track 1: like in his life and like eventually things calm down so i just thought it's

Speaker: 00:35:39

Track 1: an interesting direction for her is to be let to do less yeah.

Speaker: 00:35:43

Track 2: I mean i think it's a common direction i think.

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Track 1: Oh okay i.

Speaker: 00:35:47

Track 2: Think the i think the camera sees sees everything and and doing less is but

Speaker: 00:35:52

Track 2: all that aside i don't know if i fully agree with you about her being calm i

Speaker: 00:35:57

Track 2: i recognize her as being very honest and very straightforward and also tender and,

Speaker: 00:36:07

Track 2: She's the counterpoint to the harshness of the sisters. And they're not even

Speaker: 00:36:11

Track 2: harsh on purpose. They're just sort of oblivious.

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Track 1: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:16

Track 2: Like, I don't think that they're, I don't think they're meaning to destroy him, but they do.

Speaker: 00:36:23

Track 2: And I love the shot where they're all about to sit down at the table and it's

Speaker: 00:36:28

Track 2: this long table and there's like babies and husbands and cake.

Speaker: 00:36:31

Track 2: And then he just, he just smashes those windows.

Speaker: 00:36:34

Track 2: Um and she emily watson's character is this counterpoint she's really paying

Speaker: 00:36:42

Track 2: attention she's really open and not like she's not oblivious at all um she she.

Speaker: 00:36:49

Track 1: Seems to know more what's going on but just doesn't kind of like keeps it to herself maybe.

Speaker: 00:36:54

Track 2: Yes yes yes and the

Speaker: 00:36:58

Track 2: scene i really love the scene when they're

Speaker: 00:37:01

Track 2: in Hawaii in the hotel and it's

Speaker: 00:37:04

Track 2: the morning after and she's talking

Speaker: 00:37:07

Track 2: to his sister on the phone again and she

Speaker: 00:37:10

Track 2: lies she says no no he didn't call

Speaker: 00:37:13

Track 2: me like while she's looking at him and you can tell that she's doing it to be

Speaker: 00:37:23

Track 2: protective of them you know it doesn't it's not a malicious lie and then she's

Speaker: 00:37:29

Track 2: like looking at him and he sat in the bed in the dressing gown,

Speaker: 00:37:33

Track 2: He's like tucked up like a kind of man baby in the white dressing gown.

Speaker: 00:37:38

Track 2: It's the only time he's not wearing the suit.

Speaker: 00:37:41

Track 2: And he tells her the truth. He looks her in the eye and he says,

Speaker: 00:37:44

Track 2: I didn't have any business. I just came here for you.

Speaker: 00:37:48

Track 1: And sorry.

Speaker: 00:37:50

Track 2: No, no, it's like it's just a spectacular piece of staging and like choices being made.

Speaker: 00:37:55

Track 1: I just like the conversation they have after that, where they're sort of like

Speaker: 00:37:58

Track 1: another comedic moment where they're talking about like, you know,

Speaker: 00:38:01

Track 1: scooping her his eyes out. and these like.

Speaker: 00:38:03

Track 2: Like vulgar.

Speaker: 00:38:04

Track 1: Things and i like to think of a world where like they probably had even more

Speaker: 00:38:07

Track 1: of those that they like didn't make it in or like maybe they're in the script and.

Speaker: 00:38:10

Track 2: I just i think that.

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Track 1: Is this like weird they have this uh this rapport

Speaker: 00:38:15

Track 1: with each other that's like brutally i mean maybe it's not completely brutally

Speaker: 00:38:20

Track 1: honest initially but she doesn't then she doesn't also lie about how you know

Speaker: 00:38:25

Track 1: she admits to him that she had seen his photo at like their house and that's

Speaker: 00:38:29

Track 1: why she set up going to the car and all these things like she's.

Speaker: 00:38:32

Track 2: Yeah had.

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Track 1: Planned all of this very.

Speaker: 00:38:34

Track 2: Significantly but she she

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Track 2: that she says that as soon as they sit down

Speaker: 00:38:40

Track 2: to dinner because she's like i didn't want

Speaker: 00:38:43

Track 2: to go too far without hiding anything something like

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Track 2: that so and it's like it's there in her face it's like

Speaker: 00:38:48

Track 2: right there in her face this is beautiful round face they've

Speaker: 00:38:52

Track 2: given her this funny haircut so there's like none none

Speaker: 00:38:55

Track 2: of her face is obscured she's got these big round

Speaker: 00:38:58

Track 2: eyes um and she's obviously almost

Speaker: 00:39:01

Track 2: always wearing like the color counterpoint

Speaker: 00:39:04

Track 2: to his blue suit yes um it's really simple

Speaker: 00:39:07

Track 2: and she actually her silhouette is really elegant she looks a little bit like

Speaker: 00:39:13

Track 2: a lady in a screwball comedy she's like she's got like a skirt and a cardigan

Speaker: 00:39:18

Track 2: and there's something classy about

Speaker: 00:39:19

Track 2: it but it's really simple like it's not calling attention to itself um,

Speaker: 00:39:26

Track 2: But she cannot withhold, it doesn't seem.

Speaker: 00:39:32

Track 2: No. And that does something to him. And it's there in her witnessing as much as it is in her speech.

Speaker: 00:39:41

Track 1: Yes. Yeah. Her performance is incredible in this.

Speaker: 00:39:47

Track 1: And I think since we're talking about some of the other performances,

Speaker: 00:39:50

Track 1: I want to also talk about Philip Seymour Hoffman.

Speaker: 00:39:54

Track 1: And this who isn't in too many scenes but like

Speaker: 00:39:57

Track 1: pretty much any movie he's in he always steals the show and

Speaker: 00:40:00

Track 1: and anything he's in and so he plays he's

Speaker: 00:40:03

Track 1: like sort of like the boss of this sort of call girl operation which is

Speaker: 00:40:06

Track 1: clearly like a whole scam he's running i mean it always it does seem like it's

Speaker: 00:40:10

Track 1: only the georgia character but maybe there's others as part of this little group

Speaker: 00:40:13

Track 1: and he owns a mattress discount mattress store in utah and if you actually you

Speaker: 00:40:19

Track 1: can go on youtube You can find that there's actually a commercial they filmed

Speaker: 00:40:22

Track 1: for his mattress store that didn't make it into the film or anything like that,

Speaker: 00:40:26

Track 1: where he's playing guitar on a roof and jumps off the roof onto a stack of mattresses,

Speaker: 00:40:30

Track 1: but then falls on the ground and they are still filming the commercial. And he's like, I'm OK.

Speaker: 00:40:34

Track 1: It's, you know, it's it's it's great. And he plays.

Speaker: 00:40:38

Track 2: Can I just interrupt you?

Speaker: 00:40:40

Track 1: Oh, please.

Speaker: 00:40:40

Track 2: Was that supposed to be in the movie?

Speaker: 00:40:43

Track 1: No, no. I think they just filmed it for fun.

Speaker: 00:40:46

Track 2: All right, great.

Speaker: 00:40:47

Track 1: But I think in the other podcast, they mentioned that it would have been really

Speaker: 00:40:51

Track 1: funny if they could have somehow weaved the commercial into the background of some scene.

Speaker: 00:40:55

Track 1: But they alluded to the fact, like, it's in Utah. They wouldn't play a Utah

Speaker: 00:40:58

Track 1: commercial for mattresses in California. That would make no sense.

Speaker: 00:41:02

Track 1: So I don't know how they could have done it, but it would have been really funny.

Speaker: 00:41:04

Track 2: But loads of things don't make sense in this movie.

Speaker: 00:41:07

Track 1: No, that's true.

Speaker: 00:41:07

Track 2: So it would have been fine.

Speaker: 00:41:08

Track 1: Yeah, they could have just, well, I think there they commented that like wouldn't

Speaker: 00:41:12

Track 1: have been cool if Adam Sandler was at a laundromat doing his laundry and like

Speaker: 00:41:15

Track 1: the commercial in the background,

Speaker: 00:41:16

Track 1: which is playing the Philip Seymour Hoffman, you know, mattress commercial or

Speaker: 00:41:20

Track 1: something like that. And it's very, very funny.

Speaker: 00:41:23

Track 1: But I think what I was getting to is like, so we talked about kind of how Adam

Speaker: 00:41:27

Track 1: Sandler sort of has this anger kind of component to him.

Speaker: 00:41:30

Track 1: But then you sort of like meets his match for the only time in the film when

Speaker: 00:41:35

Track 1: he has the phone call with him, where they're both just like absolutely shouting at each other.

Speaker: 00:41:39

Track 1: It's one of the funniest scenes in the entire film for me.

Speaker: 00:41:43

Track 1: It's just, you know, I love Philip Seymour Hoffman, you know,

Speaker: 00:41:46

Track 1: gone too soon, of course. But he that scene is great and he doesn't play a big

Speaker: 00:41:51

Track 1: role, but it's like the perfect.

Speaker: 00:41:54

Track 1: I don't know, like there is Emma Watson is sort of this more,

Speaker: 00:41:58

Track 1: you know, not angry kind of person.

Speaker: 00:42:00

Track 1: Then you have Adam Sandler kind of having this internal anger and also outward

Speaker: 00:42:04

Track 1: anger, breaking the window and these things.

Speaker: 00:42:06

Track 1: Then you have Philip Seymour Hoffman as like this another level of rage.

Speaker: 00:42:10

Track 1: So I don't know what you thought about it.

Speaker: 00:42:11

Track 2: I think that there is an argument, sorry,

Speaker: 00:42:15

Track 2: I think there's a case to be made to screen this as a double bill with Charlie

Speaker: 00:42:21

Track 2: Wilson's war so that you can just see Philip Seymour Hoffman shouting at people,

Speaker: 00:42:27

Track 2: which is medicinal from my point of view.

Speaker: 00:42:30

Track 2: Like watching that man on leash is never gets

Speaker: 00:42:33

Track 2: boring and i think

Speaker: 00:42:36

Track 2: that he is i think that

Speaker: 00:42:39

Track 2: he understands how to wield his anger yes and how to make it a threat and how

Speaker: 00:42:47

Track 2: to make it dangerous to other people where adam sana's character is like this

Speaker: 00:42:52

Track 2: anger of mine is a danger to me and my relationships and my ability to make them.

Speaker: 00:42:59

Track 2: And I also think that, again, it's very elegant in its construction because

Speaker: 00:43:06

Track 2: the story is about this couple meeting, you don't want to leave them for very long or very often.

Speaker: 00:43:15

Track 2: And so it's like, it's the epitome of doing a lot with a little.

Speaker: 00:43:19

Track 2: Like, how do you anchor the story,

Speaker: 00:43:24

Track 2: truth of this threat in a very short amount of screen time.

Speaker: 00:43:29

Track 1: Yeah and.

Speaker: 00:43:30

Track 2: The answer is to to cast philip.

Speaker: 00:43:32

Track 1: C mothman.

Speaker: 00:43:33

Track 2: As an angry person.

Speaker: 00:43:34

Track 1: Yeah and yeah i just i love that scene like when they're angering but then also

Speaker: 00:43:38

Track 1: it's even better too when he goes to utah to sort of like i guess,

Speaker: 00:43:42

Track 1: settle settle things which you mentioned earlier like he just somehow all of

Speaker: 00:43:45

Track 1: a sudden is in utah like they don't show him driving it's he's just there and

Speaker: 00:43:49

Track 1: he has this like standoff where they're kind of like looking face to face and

Speaker: 00:43:52

Track 1: you know they kind of just agree to disagree almost like i'll leave you alone

Speaker: 00:43:56

Track 1: and you know you won't come here and threaten me and we can move on that's that yep say.

Speaker: 00:44:01

Track 2: That's that such a such a funny phrase.

Speaker: 00:44:04

Track 1: Yeah yeah yeah uh it's.

Speaker: 00:44:07

Track 2: Um yeah he's just he's spectacular it's occurring to me now that they're that

Speaker: 00:44:14

Track 2: that scene culminates in them squaring off in profile but it's the opposite

Speaker: 00:44:19

Track 2: of the profile of the lovers because the lovers are in silhouette.

Speaker: 00:44:23

Track 1: Yes and.

Speaker: 00:44:25

Track 2: That happens twice him and emily watson are in silhouette in the bedroom and

Speaker: 00:44:30

Track 2: then in the kiss in that when they meet in the hotel but this is the other way

Speaker: 00:44:33

Track 2: around that like you can see both of them and they're like nose to nose.

Speaker: 00:44:38

Track 1: Yeah i don't.

Speaker: 00:44:41

Track 2: Know if that means anything or if it's just that same thing of like light and dark and um.

Speaker: 00:44:45

Track 1: Yeah i mean he definitely comes back

Speaker: 00:44:48

Track 1: to a lot of the same sort of methods of

Speaker: 00:44:52

Track 1: showing like the the different contrasts just

Speaker: 00:44:57

Track 1: like the way he's showing so many contrasts of light and like

Speaker: 00:45:00

Track 1: the kind of like the i don't i'm not don't know

Speaker: 00:45:03

Track 1: the term of like where almost feels like the the the lens

Speaker: 00:45:06

Track 1: is like kind of like burning out with just that like bright white light

Speaker: 00:45:10

Track 1: you know um like especially the very opening scene shot

Speaker: 00:45:13

Track 1: when there's the truck and then when he's going to hawaii down the the runway

Speaker: 00:45:16

Track 1: or whatever the little you know there and just like those bright lights and

Speaker: 00:45:21

Track 1: then the opposite of sort of like the dark and dingy garage a dark and dingy

Speaker: 00:45:25

Track 1: back room at this mattress store and all these different uh places yeah.

Speaker: 00:45:31

Track 2: I mean i i think i think that this movie uses lens flare.

Speaker: 00:45:36

Track 1: Lens in a really beautiful Yeah, that's the term.

Speaker: 00:45:39

Track 2: But it's...

Speaker: 00:45:42

Track 2: Like everything else, it's timed. So it hits at a perfect moment,

Speaker: 00:45:48

Track 2: and I don't think it's gratuitous.

Speaker: 00:45:50

Track 2: And I don't think it's making it look good for the sake of it.

Speaker: 00:45:55

Track 2: I think it's being used intentionally.

Speaker: 00:45:57

Track 2: And I think a million people put Lensler all over music videos just to make them look shiny.

Speaker: 00:46:03

Track 2: And that's fine. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. But there's that

Speaker: 00:46:09

Track 2: single shot. Again, the elegance of it is one shot.

Speaker: 00:46:12

Track 2: He as he as he decided when he goes to Hawaii and

Speaker: 00:46:15

Track 2: it the thing that I love is that he realizes that

Speaker: 00:46:18

Track 2: the pudding plan isn't gonna

Speaker: 00:46:21

Track 2: work because they they want six to eight weeks

Speaker: 00:46:24

Track 2: and so he's furious and he's pacing around

Speaker: 00:46:27

Track 2: again on the phone bad news coming down the

Speaker: 00:46:30

Track 2: phone and then he abandons the

Speaker: 00:46:33

Track 2: plan and he hangs up the phone and he says to his colleague you're in

Speaker: 00:46:36

Track 2: charge I'm just gonna go and it's so sweet

Speaker: 00:46:39

Track 2: his colleague's like you're going to hawaii congratulations they're

Speaker: 00:46:43

Track 2: so happy for him yeah and you

Speaker: 00:46:46

Track 2: he cuts straight to sana walking down the walkway with his ticket in his hand

Speaker: 00:46:52

Track 2: and the camera like pivots and follows him it's just so so simple in its construction

Speaker: 00:46:57

Track 2: and there's like one single shot of him on the plane he's like i've never been

Speaker: 00:47:01

Track 2: on a plane before what's that noise he's.

Speaker: 00:47:03

Track 1: Like i don't know.

Speaker: 00:47:04

Track 2: And then we're in hawaii and um

Speaker: 00:47:07

Track 2: i think there's one thing i just have to

Speaker: 00:47:10

Track 2: it was just nudging me about emily watson's performance

Speaker: 00:47:13

Track 2: which is that right at the end he when

Speaker: 00:47:17

Track 2: he goes back to her and she opens the door

Speaker: 00:47:20

Track 2: she is so pissed she's

Speaker: 00:47:23

Track 2: furious and she says to him you left me at the hospital you

Speaker: 00:47:27

Track 2: can't do that and he apologizes for real and she obviously loves him and gets

Speaker: 00:47:33

Track 2: over it but a lesser director and a lesser actor would have missed that and

Speaker: 00:47:40

Track 2: it's it's essential because you she's real i think she is real i don't think she's,

Speaker: 00:47:47

Track 2: his his a figment of his imagination because she's,

Speaker: 00:47:53

Track 2: that if she was just fantasy she wouldn't do that.

Speaker: 00:47:57

Track 1: Yeah so it would have just been open arms let you back in like.

Speaker: 00:48:00

Track 2: Yeah all never.

Speaker: 00:48:01

Track 1: Wouldn't have to forgive you.

Speaker: 00:48:03

Track 2: Yeah but she's furious she's she's like you fucking left you know there's a

Speaker: 00:48:08

Track 2: point there's a there's a line that you can't cross and you crossed it or there's

Speaker: 00:48:11

Track 2: something that you must do and you didn't do it yeah and and that is And again,

Speaker: 00:48:19

Track 2: it's why he...

Speaker: 00:48:23

Track 2: Is able to be honest with her.

Speaker: 00:48:24

Track 1: Yeah because.

Speaker: 00:48:26

Track 2: He kind of has to be.

Speaker: 00:48:27

Track 1: Yes the just

Speaker: 00:48:31

Track 1: going back very briefly to the you mentioned the pudding plan

Speaker: 00:48:34

Track 1: like for people who don't know and maybe haven't seen this or

Speaker: 00:48:37

Track 1: like realize this like this was actually based on a story that

Speaker: 00:48:40

Track 1: actually happened that paul thomas emerson like there's actually

Speaker: 00:48:43

Track 1: an interview on the blu-ray where

Speaker: 00:48:46

Track 1: they interview the actual guy who this happened to with like

Speaker: 00:48:50

Track 1: katie curick on like good morning america like

Speaker: 00:48:53

Track 1: it's a good 10 minute interview of like how he planned this he actually

Speaker: 00:48:55

Track 1: spent three thousand dollars to get the million miles but apparently

Speaker: 00:48:58

Track 1: he wasn't like he wasn't like uh he didn't need the

Speaker: 00:49:01

Track 1: money like he was somewhat well off in

Speaker: 00:49:04

Track 1: a way but he did this anyway to have all the miles and i

Speaker: 00:49:07

Track 1: just love that that back plot is in there and like

Speaker: 00:49:11

Track 1: the scenes at the grocery store which we didn't really mention also is

Speaker: 00:49:14

Track 1: like you know grocery stores are like super bright like i i also love when he's

Speaker: 00:49:17

Track 1: like going back and forth he's like finding the different items and he finally

Speaker: 00:49:21

Track 1: sees the pudding and they show him kind of above the the shells walking through

Speaker: 00:49:25

Track 1: and then later he takes his co-worker to fill up the pudding and all of that

Speaker: 00:49:29

Track 1: and just i love that back plot where you sort of.

Speaker: 00:49:33

Track 1: Think he's crazy he's like what's all that pudding doing here and he has to

Speaker: 00:49:37

Track 1: sort of like Oh, you know, that's nothing like, you know, don't worry about the pudding.

Speaker: 00:49:41

Track 1: And but the thing that I also think about, too, is what I wanted to bring up

Speaker: 00:49:46

Track 1: is if had he never met Emily Watson, he was already doing making this plant.

Speaker: 00:49:50

Track 1: So what was he going to do with all of these miles? Like, who is he going to?

Speaker: 00:49:55

Track 1: To see like he didn't really have any friends or anyone to go see but now he

Speaker: 00:50:00

Track 1: at the very end is like i'm going to use my miles to just travel with you like i'm not going to.

Speaker: 00:50:03

Track 2: Work i'm just going to go.

Speaker: 00:50:04

Track 1: With you it's like what was what was his what was the what was going to happen

Speaker: 00:50:09

Track 1: if that didn't happen you know like i'm.

Speaker: 00:50:11

Track 2: Yeah yeah but that's the that's the that's the nature of like the mystery right

Speaker: 00:50:18

Track 2: of course he's it's like why did this tiny piano show up with this truck and,

Speaker: 00:50:24

Track 2: um why did i decide to buy this suit you know he even he's like i'm not really

Speaker: 00:50:30

Track 2: sure i just thought it would be nice to dress for work like he's clearly never

Speaker: 00:50:33

Track 2: worn that suit before um he.

Speaker: 00:50:36

Track 1: Sells plungers and he's wearing a like a beautiful blue suit.

Speaker: 00:50:39

Track 2: Right and the the

Speaker: 00:50:42

Track 2: scene where he he's like come on come on what am i

Speaker: 00:50:45

Track 2: looking for he's like there's something

Speaker: 00:50:47

Track 2: i'm looking for um when he first sees

Speaker: 00:50:50

Track 2: the the frequent flyer thing and like he's trying to figure

Speaker: 00:50:53

Track 2: pudding is the thing like the cheapest thing and there's

Speaker: 00:50:56

Track 2: this error with the barcodes and he tells her

Speaker: 00:50:59

Track 2: the story of it like it's this he

Speaker: 00:51:02

Track 2: says it's like a marketing mistake that he's trying to take advantage of

Speaker: 00:51:05

Track 2: before everyone else starts doing it which is

Speaker: 00:51:08

Track 2: indicative of his worldview and she

Speaker: 00:51:11

Track 2: says she says that's fucking

Speaker: 00:51:15

Track 2: crazy and that again it's this piece

Speaker: 00:51:18

Track 2: she's really logical she's paying attention um she's

Speaker: 00:51:21

Track 2: not she's not delusional but she's like willing to be amused like it's like

Speaker: 00:51:28

Track 2: she finds everything really funny and she has this kind of childlike delight

Speaker: 00:51:32

Track 2: at things while also somehow being an adult and being real which i i i think

Speaker: 00:51:38

Track 2: is really important somehow i think that's why she's attracted.

Speaker: 00:51:41

Track 1: To him in in like this way like she sees his picture like okay but then she.

Speaker: 00:51:45

Track 2: Meets him.

Speaker: 00:51:46

Track 1: And he's this like kind of quirky guy and just you know it's it's something

Speaker: 00:51:50

Track 1: like it's it's fascinating to her but not in like a cruel way.

Speaker: 00:51:54

Track 2: Um and so,

Speaker: 00:52:03

Track 2: it's so funny when he's when she says she's going

Speaker: 00:52:06

Track 2: to hawaii and he lies he's like hawaii i

Speaker: 00:52:10

Track 2: was thinking about going there yeah um

Speaker: 00:52:15

Track 2: yeah it's again i

Speaker: 00:52:18

Track 2: think if you look at this like a

Speaker: 00:52:22

Track 2: like a kind of mini extended

Speaker: 00:52:26

Track 2: trip psychedelic trip which is

Speaker: 00:52:28

Track 2: the kind of thing that like new love can induce in you like why was all these

Speaker: 00:52:34

Track 2: things happening at the same time like then there were the frequent flyer miles

Speaker: 00:52:38

Track 2: then i met a woman that flies a lot you know yeah it's this kind of moving tapestry

Speaker: 00:52:45

Track 2: that doesn't make sense but does yeah.

Speaker: 00:52:48

Track 1: Yeah i think i'm i'm i'm i've been convinced that there is that it's not a fantasy

Speaker: 00:52:54

Track 1: but maybe it's like it's a a real fantasy like a just kind of like a i hate

Speaker: 00:53:01

Track 1: to say like self-fulfilling prophecy it's not really that it just like

Speaker: 00:53:04

Track 1: the things all come together in a way that's so

Speaker: 00:53:07

Track 1: unexpected you know the piano and

Speaker: 00:53:10

Track 1: then her like bringing her car to the because he

Speaker: 00:53:13

Track 1: lit you know his job is next to this car place and all of these things happening

Speaker: 00:53:17

Track 1: that are just so far-fetched but somehow i mean that's i mean isn't that what

Speaker: 00:53:23

Track 1: so many rom-coms are like these far-fetched moments of like meeting someone

Speaker: 00:53:28

Track 1: and then like being separated and then somehow meeting again and so.

Speaker: 00:53:32

Track 2: That's you.

Speaker: 00:53:33

Track 1: Know it's like those rom coms but it's like it's not grounded but somehow it's grounded.

Speaker: 00:53:38

Track 2: Yeah exactly it's it's a masterpiece in

Speaker: 00:53:41

Track 2: that way and i think there's also for

Speaker: 00:53:44

Track 2: me this piece about the the background the literal

Speaker: 00:53:47

Track 2: actual location so i think

Speaker: 00:53:51

Track 2: i can think of twice i feel like

Speaker: 00:53:53

Track 2: it happens more where we have these huge trucks like huge

Speaker: 00:53:57

Track 2: trucks driving past and um

Speaker: 00:54:02

Track 2: first you have the cat first you have the car crash and then the cab that arrives

Speaker: 00:54:07

Track 2: and someone just leaves the piano there and then it's as a huge truck is going

Speaker: 00:54:13

Track 2: by that he like takes it and runs with it um and there's another moment the point being really that,

Speaker: 00:54:20

Track 2: The background is in motion. Like these trucks are so big that they look like

Speaker: 00:54:25

Track 2: walls and they're rolling around.

Speaker: 00:54:29

Track 2: And I feel like it's sort of tectonic

Speaker: 00:54:32

Track 2: shifts, you know, like the landscape itself is changing and moving.

Speaker: 00:54:37

Track 2: That's what happens when you meet someone who you really fall in love with, you know.

Speaker: 00:54:44

Track 1: Love stuff.

Speaker: 00:54:46

Track 2: Yeah. And it's done in a really elegant way.

Speaker: 00:54:50

Track 2: That like doesn't call attention to itself unless you watch movies the way i

Speaker: 00:54:55

Track 2: watch movies i don't know.

Speaker: 00:54:56

Track 1: Yeah yeah i think just opening with

Speaker: 00:54:59

Track 1: the with the crash too is sort of

Speaker: 00:55:02

Track 1: like maybe that's what it's like to you know meet someone

Speaker: 00:55:05

Track 1: and then the piano is there to almost like play

Speaker: 00:55:08

Track 1: into the musical level of the film and

Speaker: 00:55:11

Track 1: then the all the artful shots the beginning it's like

Speaker: 00:55:14

Track 1: they've he did such a masterful paul tanner sanderson's

Speaker: 00:55:17

Track 1: sort of masterful job at the just to opening the film with

Speaker: 00:55:20

Track 1: all these different sort of things that are going

Speaker: 00:55:22

Track 1: to then be like threads that are going to then be

Speaker: 00:55:25

Track 1: pulled throughout it and yeah yeah i mean i honestly can't

Speaker: 00:55:28

Track 1: say and you know you said at the beginning sort

Speaker: 00:55:31

Track 1: of like what this film is like the most maybe the

Speaker: 00:55:34

Track 1: most watchable of all of his films i can't really think of any of the other

Speaker: 00:55:38

Track 1: ones like that are all very good movies but i can't just like see myself just

Speaker: 00:55:42

Track 1: you know hopping down and watching there will be blood or boogie nights necessarily

Speaker: 00:55:45

Track 1: but this i could be like yeah you know i have a an hour and 45 minutes i'll

Speaker: 00:55:48

Track 1: watch you know watch this and yeah you know it's just uh i.

Speaker: 00:55:52

Track 2: Think i think licorice pizza falls into the watchable highly watchable category of his movies for me.

Speaker: 00:55:58

Track 1: Yes um.

Speaker: 00:55:59

Track 2: And i i love inherent

Speaker: 00:56:02

Track 2: vice that's that's probably the one

Speaker: 00:56:05

Track 2: i've watched the most other than this it's more of a mindfuck in terms of its

Speaker: 00:56:10

Track 2: plot and it i have to pay really hard attention to try and figure out exactly

Speaker: 00:56:14

Track 2: what's going on but i love that movie too i think that there's a tiny piece

Speaker: 00:56:21

Track 2: well when i watch licorice pizza,

Speaker: 00:56:26

Track 2: I thought, if you had a friend and their parents were like a legendary couple

Speaker: 00:56:34

Track 2: who'd been together decades, this is the story of how they met.

Speaker: 00:56:40

Track 2: You know, like that couple that everyone is like, your parents are the best.

Speaker: 00:56:45

Track 2: And it's so funny that she's actually a couple of years older than him.

Speaker: 00:56:49

Track 2: It doesn't seem like anything when they're 65 and 68, you know.

Speaker: 00:56:54

Track 1: But.

Speaker: 00:56:55

Track 2: Three years in high school makes a really big difference and um i wonder whether

Speaker: 00:57:01

Track 2: maybe punch truck love comes in that category as well like that was the story of how we met.

Speaker: 00:57:06

Track 1: Yeah that's interesting yeah i've

Speaker: 00:57:11

Track 1: watched uh it's funny sometimes i think that like rich pizza

Speaker: 00:57:14

Track 1: kind of gets um lost i think it also

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Track 1: came out like you know a year into sort of the covet

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Track 1: and probably didn't get as much of the i don't

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Track 1: know i don't want to say respect like much of the viewership that

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Track 1: it deserves and um yeah maybe

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Track 1: that's true i think it's actually one

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Track 1: that i've probably seen the least licorice pizza i think uh

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Track 1: i also really love heart a2 like as

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Track 1: a you know opening yeah first film of a director it's like he's what like 24

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Track 1: years old when he makes that i mean yeah gosh uh yeah but yeah all these yeah

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Track 1: but yeah i'm curious um but yeah do you have any any last sort of thoughts on

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Track 1: uh the film that you know things or notes that you didn't get a chance to to hit on um.

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Track 2: The art of its slapstick and of its like pain is gets overlooked sometimes um Um,

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Track 2: but loads, I, you know, I don't know because I think in general,

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Track 2: his work can confuse people.

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Track 2: And so I also don't know if there is consensus.

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Track 1: Yeah.

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Track 2: Maybe more than most directors. I don't, I don't see a consensus about which movies are great.

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Track 2: I know people who don't love this movie, you know, and we share tastes in a

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Track 2: lot of other movies, but they couldn't get with this one.

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Track 2: Um and maybe that's what makes him so compelling um yeah no i think i think,

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Track 2: the only thing i was thinking which is kind of a tangent is are there ways in

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Track 2: which are there ways in which paul thomas anderson and adam sandler's work is similar,

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Track 2: like which seems it seems like the answer is no and i can't make a solid case

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Track 2: like i haven't like fully developed this theory but yes,

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Track 2: I wonder whether they both feel misunderstood.

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Track 2: I think a lot of people who make movies feel misunderstood and you can't ever

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Track 2: really know how a movie is received by everyone who receives it.

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Track 2: It's always going to be a mixed bag to some degree.

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Track 1: Yeah, I think that's probably right.

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Track 2: But it just tickles me. It tickles me that these two really brilliant people,

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Track 2: got together to make this really weird movie and it's so beautiful.

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Track 1: Yeah yeah and to just you mentioned like sort of

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Track 1: looking at ptas like the list

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Track 1: of films and like which ones are popular which ones are more fair i

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Track 1: think i've looked at like lists on letterboxd people's like

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Track 1: their rankings of them and they're always so wildly different but i think what

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Track 1: makes part of his filmography in general is like he's never made a bad movie

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Track 1: like there's just some that like maybe are easier and more accessible to watch

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Track 1: for some people and more often and others Like I couldn't really see myself

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Track 1: watching The Master all the time, but it's just an incredible film too.

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Track 1: Same thing with Magnolia. And then the only note I wanted to mention that I

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Track 1: thought was interesting is that, because I just watched Magnolia.

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Track 1: So in the Tom Cruise character in that film, he kind of, a little bit of a spoiler

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Track 1: at the end, he sort of is professing sort of his love and his kind of sadness

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Track 1: at not really knowing his father.

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Track 1: And he has this love, he doesn't know where to put it. But then it's almost

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Track 1: like in this film, Adam Sandler like also feels that way, but then finally has

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Track 1: somewhere to put it at the end.

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Track 1: Like he actually reaches this moment where he has Emily Watson and can actually

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Track 1: put his love somewhere. So maybe in that way, because Magnolia is a deeply personal film for PTA.

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Track 1: So at the beginning, I said, like, maybe this isn't like maybe actually it is.

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Track 1: Maybe this is sort of, you know, what he couldn't accomplish maybe in that film

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Track 1: because that was such a serious, long, you know, different storylines.

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Track 1: And this is much more simple, like in quotes, in a way, as a film. So, yeah.

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Track 2: Yeah, yeah. I just...

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Track 2: This is just a pet peeve. I hate that, like, that culture of ranking movies.

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Track 2: I really hate it. I think it's really stupid.

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Track 2: And I understand it as a talking point, as a way of accessing,

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Track 2: like, where do we stand on a subject?

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Track 2: It can be useful in that way. but i think it squashes it squashes the lens through

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Track 2: which you see the work because,

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Track 2: true people progress do you know what i mean like you you you learn so much

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Track 2: when you make a movie and then you if you're lucky and good you get a chance

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Track 2: to do it again and you know life has happened to you as well as the movie experience

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Track 2: that you've the movie making experience you've,

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Track 2: and so i just because i

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Track 2: guess and as a maker myself i understand those things is happening it was like

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Track 2: a trajectory so yeah i just find it um i find it a distortion but i do see your

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Track 2: point and i think it it's yeah it's probably you know i feel like with kubrick as an example,

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Track 2: you're gonna see a lot of people's favorite be the favorite it's like it's never

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Track 2: gonna be barry linden you know like that's not going to be the one that everyone

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Track 2: says this is best movie not that i mean barry linden's a beautiful movie but um but yeah.

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Track 1: No it's it is true it's not like the best way to

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Track 1: do it i think it's one of those sort of like social media

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Track 1: kind of creations where like people are putting their ratings

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Track 1: and i sometimes try as a just like more personal

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Track 1: thing is sometimes when i when i watch a movie and i like post

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Track 1: it i you know on there like i log it i sometimes don't want to put a rating

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Track 1: and i just want to put like what i thought of it and sometimes just because

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Track 1: like like how can i compare you know punch drunk love with a you know a movie

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Track 1: that's so different and a different genre that has like this sentimental value

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Track 1: but like most people would be like that movie's trash you know.

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Track 2: So it's.

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Track 1: Like i don't know the ratings in general like i think i've talked about some

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Track 1: other episodes it's like such a both.

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Track 2: Like meaningless.

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Track 1: But also like maybe meaningful to yourself i don't know.

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Track 2: Yeah i think i think for me there's it's one thing to,

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Track 2: express your evaluation of something which is a rating but for me it's the ranking,

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Track 2: it's the ranking things in like top 10 lists and 100 best you know like best.

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Track 1: Films of all time or something.

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Track 2: Best films of all time um on based

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Track 2: on what merit and based on what merit on on its longevity or its box office

Speaker: 01:03:58

Track 2: or how how broad an audience it

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Track 2: can it can meet for me movies are about longevity and they're also about,

Speaker: 01:04:10

Track 2: For example, with Punch Drunk Love, I watched it two nights ago and I watched

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Track 2: it four weeks ago and I had a very different experience.

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Track 2: And it was a rich visual storytelling experience both times.

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Track 2: And I think that is one of the hallmarks of his movies.

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Track 2: Whether you could say he never made a bad movie, I would say he's never made a lazy movie.

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Track 2: Yeah you know you can feel how

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Track 2: intentional it is and how much he is connected to the

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Track 2: process of it and unfortunately that's

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Track 2: not true of all directors i don't understand how you could make

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Track 2: a sloppy movie myself because it's such hard work and

Speaker: 01:04:50

Track 2: like why would you bother but it does it does obviously occur um and so i think

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Track 2: yeah you i i can't locate the metric something as complex and rich as a movie

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Track 2: i can't locate the metric to rank one over the other um i understand though

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Track 2: no it's that's like the culture yeah.

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Track 1: It's it's certainly uh very reasonable.

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Track 2: You know perception.

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Track 1: Yeah and it is it is as you say that it's like yeah it's kind of like a thing

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Track 1: that people do but like do you need to do it you know probably not but.

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Track 2: It occurs yeah yeah but.

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Track 1: Uh portia um thank you.

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Track 2: For Thank you for coming.

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Track 1: On and talking about Punch Drug Love. It's been great.

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Track 2: Thank you, Evan. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker: 01:05:36

Track 1: Of course. And you can listen to this podcast wherever you're listening now.

Speaker: 01:05:40

Track 1: Give a like, a rating, a follow.

Speaker: 01:05:43

Track 1: And you can check out Portia's work and information in the notes below.

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Track 1: And we will catch you next time.