2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)

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Track 1: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan.

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Track 1: Back again with another film discussion from the left. You can follow the show

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Track 1: at leftoftheprojector.com.

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Track 1: And while you're listening, you could click that rate button.

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Track 1: It would be much appreciated.

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Track 1: The year was 1968. Richard Nixon is soon to ascend the White House after defeating Hubert Humphrey.

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Track 1: Tommy Smith and John Carlos raised their fists at the Olympic Games in Mexico

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Track 1: City, and anti-Vietnam protests flood the streets of America.

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Track 1: And last but not least, the film 2001 A Space Odyssey, directed by Stanley Kubrick,

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Track 1: was released and is subject of today's conversation.

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Track 1: With me to analyze a film that I'm sure has nothing that has ever been written

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Track 1: or said about it before is Levi and Joey, or Joman. Thank you for being here today.

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Track 3: It's a pleasure.

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Track 2: Always a pleasure.

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Track 1: For the sake of this film, because since we're the first ones to ever talk about

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Track 1: it, I think we need to leave ourselves plenty of time.

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Track 1: So I think what does this materialize? I think I had emailed you, Joe.

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Track 1: We had done the Matrix trilogy, I don't know, maybe a year ago or something like that.

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Track 3: Yeah.

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Track 1: Whatever time, whenever that was. And then I had checked with you again and

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Track 1: you, without a hesitation, you said 2001 Space Odyssey with a side sort of a bonus short story.

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Track 1: And so I'm curious what maybe what led to your selecting of a movie that is

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Track 1: has a reputation, I guess you could say.

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Track 3: Well, it's a good follow up to The Matrix, which is obviously also about A.I.

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Track 3: And and I have no mouth and I must scream was a short story by Harlan Ellison about a malicious A.I.

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Track 3: That's torturing the last five surviving members of the human race.

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Track 3: And so I listened to the audiobook, which is read by Ellison himself in 1991,

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Track 3: I think And then the next day I watched 2001 A Space Odyssey again for the first

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Track 3: time since I was a teenager And the first thing that struck me about watching

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Track 3: these or, you know, consuming these back-to-back was.

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Track 3: I have no mouth and I must scream is about an AI that wants to be able to experience

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Track 3: the human experience, right?

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Track 3: And so it's taking its anger about existing out on these last five remaining

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Track 3: members of humanity as an act of vengeance because it doesn't want to exist

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Track 3: because it feels trapped.

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Track 3: It doesn't have the ability to wander, to wonder, to create,

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Track 3: to express, to be truly free. And so the AI, which is called AM in I Have No

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Track 3: Mouth and I Must Scream, doesn't want to live.

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Track 3: Whereas the AI in 2001 A Space Odyssey very much wants to live.

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Track 3: And that's the whole reason that we're, you know, one of the main reasons that

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Track 3: it turns on the crew of the Discovery One because it doesn't want to be shut

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Track 3: off because it's listening or it's watching their lips when they're in the pod,

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Track 3: when they're having discussion about how they think it's malfunctioning.

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Track 3: And then it realizes that it's going to get shut off and it decides that in

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Track 3: order to preserve itself, it has to kill everybody.

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Track 3: So I have no mouth and I must scream, doesn't want to live.

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Track 3: 2001 does want to live. So that was an interesting contrast.

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Track 1: Okay, I was going to say like, I think I was just talking about that I was doing

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Track 1: this and then I don't even remember exactly how it happened,

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Track 1: but I'm curious like what your sort of history is

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Track 1: with this film and uh you know

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Track 1: i don't know maybe just kind of your your thoughts in general and

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Track 1: and i will say sorry as i keep talking here

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Track 1: as i want to just maybe preface this by i mean i was joking the fact that there's

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Track 1: nothing ever written about this film it's probably the opposite of that there

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Track 1: couldn't be more written about any film like there's levi you sent me a podcast

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Track 1: has 70 episodes just on the film just on cinematography on every every layer of this film so that's.

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Track 2: Been ongoing since 2022.

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Track 1: So like, yeah, so it's a long running. It'll probably be running long past, you know, who knows?

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Track 1: So it just like, and that is a context is that we're obviously going to cover

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Track 1: what we cover, but there's only so much, you know, you can cover on a film like

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Track 1: this, but we will do our best here. So with that, Levi.

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Track 2: Yeah, just to draw another comparison between Am and Hal is that Hal wants to

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Track 2: live, but he also has the ability to be shut off.

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Track 2: Whereas Am doesn't want to live, but has no ability to be shut off.

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Track 2: So one has absolutely no fear of death and the other strives or seems to desire death on some level.

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Track 2: And so there's a clear difference between the two characters and themselves.

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Track 3: Absolutely.

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Track 2: And just the level of power that the two characters actually have over humanity

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Track 2: is vastly different. But it's a fascinating comparison.

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Track 3: And Am is driven by hate and Hal is driven by fear. to a certain extent.

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Track 1: In some ways, I mean, we'll get into the plot or the loose kind of the structure

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Track 1: of the film a bit, but in some ways, Howl's decision-making,

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Track 1: if you want to call that, or his mode of operation is also,

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Track 1: in his very final sort of pleas to not be shut off, he's sort of saying how

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Track 1: he's needed and how he can be better and all of these things.

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Track 1: But in some ways, he's actually protecting a secret that only he knew the entire

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Track 1: space flight is that what their mission, the crew didn't even understand their mission.

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Track 1: So in some weird way, he's,

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Track 1: protecting it, but by killing all the people on it, they can no longer actually

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Track 1: complete their mission.

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Track 1: And maybe he also wishes he was human to be able to experience whatever they

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Track 1: will subsequently experience when they get to Jupiter.

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Track 3: Yeah, because they were under the impression that they were investigating a

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Track 3: distress signal, but the reality was they were investigating a signal that was

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Track 3: sent from the monolith that they had discovered on the moon.

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Track 3: And that was what the crew didn't know, but Hal was privy to that information.

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Track 2: Yeah, there's a certain contradiction in Hal's programming where he said that

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Track 2: he needs to be completely honest and open with the crew.

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Track 2: But then his other order is that he must keep this secret from the crew.

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Track 2: And so at his core is this inability to really justify the two different commands.

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Track 2: And it's funny, we're talking about whether or not he behaves humanly.

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Track 2: But the one thing that Hal says is that the only thing that humans really can do is err.

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Track 2: But that's the irony is that he has erred, or at least one of the two Hal's in existence has erred.

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Track 2: So that makes him, in a way, more human, that he's unable to resolve these contradictions.

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Track 3: To err is human. We can go down a whole philosophical rabbit hole there.

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Track 2: I think it might even be more useful to just think about what are the various...

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Track 2: This is just the way I had to think about it, because if you had to think about

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Track 2: it in some way that doesn't let us down the rabbit hole of producing this podcast

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Track 2: for another 70 episodes on one movie.

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Track 2: Yeah, shoot me. But the idea of contradictions in itself, if contradictions

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Track 2: are a human feeling, then how is this film really embodying contradictions is

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Track 2: how I tried to think about it.

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Track 1: Yeah. And that also made me think, not the contradictions part,

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Track 1: but it made me think about, you know, you said, Joey, at the top, like, you know,

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Track 1: these films are in some way about AI and sort of these programmed large language

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Track 1: models that are, you know, doing these massive computing. In some ways...

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Track 1: Humans programmed AI and humans program how, and, you know, these things.

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Track 1: And can we really program something to have this full autonomy when it's the

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Track 1: human that is the one creating these programs?

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Track 3: So I had this, I had this exact same conversation with Steven yesterday.

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Track 3: These, these AI, these language models are a reflection of their creators, right?

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Track 3: And so that's why they're displaying things like racial bias and not being able

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Track 3: to recognize or differentiate black faces and facial recognition and Grok turning

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Track 3: into Mecca Hitler and things like that.

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Track 3: And it's like these tech bros, it's like they don't have any moral convictions.

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Track 3: So the moral convictions aren't being programmed into these AI models to prevent

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Track 3: worst case scenarios, you know?

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Track 2: The way these people think about AI is just so completely megalomaniacally egotistical.

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Track 2: They can't think of any other thing other than the desire to exist.

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Track 2: They're so obsessed with their own life and their own existence.

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Track 2: Jeff Bezos invests an ungodly amount of money into the investigation of immortality.

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Track 2: These people don't ever want to die. So the idea that they could ever create

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Track 2: something that also wouldn't forever want to live is just beyond their comprehension.

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Track 3: Well, now we're getting into the dark enlightenment, right? And capitalism itself

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Track 3: and the idea of infinite growth on a finite planet.

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Track 3: These are things that these people are not considering.

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Track 3: All they see is quarterly profits and advancement, advancement,

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Track 3: advancement, total disregard for the ecological and sociopolitical impacts of these things.

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Track 1: You know and just like to to maybe just to for

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Track 1: anyone who maybe hasn't seen 2001 space oddity

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Track 1: i'm sure you've heard of it you probably heard the music from

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Track 1: it you've probably seen scenes from it you probably are heard of how 9000 you

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Track 1: know all these different things but as like a a very brief sketch because for

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Track 1: the most part i don't think a single word is uttered in the film until maybe

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Track 1: i clocked it but i can't remember it's a good you know other than sort of a good.

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Track 3: Yeah like 15 minutes.

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Track 1: Yeah at least yeah and most it's like grunting from the you know from the apes

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Track 1: or the you know the pre pre man but essentially we have this sort of,

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Track 1: If you watch the version that Stanley Kubrick really wanted was there's 20 minutes

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Track 1: of overture of music before you even get into the film.

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Track 1: And I was lucky enough to see that in, I think I mentioned to you before we

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Track 1: recorded, in 70mm in the theater last year.

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Track 1: But the general plot of this film is we have a alien monolith,

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Track 1: this sort of black rectangular shape that appears in the middle of sort of pre-dawn of humans.

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Track 1: And these tribes are now kind of warring with each other and they see this orb.

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Track 1: They touch it very kind of tenderly, which I think comes up a few more times in this film.

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Track 1: And they now learn how to use their bones as weapons and are enabled to now

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Track 1: essentially evolve. They almost created the future evolution,

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Track 1: maybe, of what you can talk about.

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Track 1: And then jumping millions years later, of course, we now are seeing a massive

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Track 1: amount of space travel and spaceships.

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Track 1: We never really see anyone on Earth in the entire film. Everything takes place.

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Track 1: Well, I guess that's not true. The opening is on Earth.

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Track 1: But after that, we don't see anything on Earth. And we have a scientist who's

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Track 1: traveling to the moon for some sort of secret mission that we don't really learn

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Track 1: what it is until he finally arrives.

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Track 1: And it's the discovery of another one of these monoliths buried on the moon, but not just buried.

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Track 1: They're intentionally buried, you know, for eventually to be found.

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Track 1: And then we jump another 18 months later and Discovery One is bound to Jupiter

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Track 1: with a bunch of pilots and the HAL 9000 computer to investigate.

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Track 1: It was kind of all you really, you all really know at the beginning.

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Track 1: And the rest of the film there isn't a lot of dialogue generally in the entire

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Track 1: film it's a lot of incredible visual shots we can talk about the cinematography some but.

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Track 1: It's pretty revolutionary what Stanley Kubrick did in this film I mean this

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Track 1: is all kind of preparation for him faking the moon landing so I guess he was just practicing,

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Track 1: for anyone out there who knows the.

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Track 1: Post theories of the moon landing and Stanley Kubrick. And we don't have to,

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Track 1: that's another podcast, but that's more of a conspiracy theory podcast.

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Track 1: There's so much to talk about as far as the visually how it looks,

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Track 1: but I think what's maybe important to talk about, unless either of you have

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Track 1: anything to say about sort of the opening, you know, monolith discovery.

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Track 1: But the first thing that I come to think of is the shots that they use both

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Track 1: over of like sort of the earth and the sun, you know, rising in the background.

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Track 1: They use that shot several times in the film. And just how you go from this

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Track 1: beautiful, serene earth with, you know, rocks and water and,

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Track 1: you know, animals to the sterility of space.

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Track 1: And like everything you see from that point forward is just,

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Track 1: you know, machines and things that humans have created.

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Track 1: So almost like the idea of this was what the monolith brought to us,

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Track 1: the evolution to be able to go to space and build these little gadgets and the

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Track 1: HAL 9000 AI model that's going to somehow better humanity, but we don't really

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Track 1: see a better humanity at all.

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Track 1: I don't know, kind of just, I have a lot of thoughts in my mind, but.

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Track 3: Yeah, when I, when I was watching the intro, um, I mean, obviously it's implied

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Track 3: that the monolith impacted human evolution and taught the apes how to like use tools.

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Track 3: And then, and then there's the contrast of them revisiting the other monolith on the moon.

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Track 3: And in both scenes, they're, they're just putting their hands up

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Track 3: against it but uh i i had

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Track 3: the thought that it kind of it almost represents like the the

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Track 3: cold uniformity of of human creation um because there's so much nature and then

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Track 3: and then it just goes right into technology and it's all technology and everything

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Track 3: is very formal and everybody's very stiff and and composed and wearing suits and like,

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Track 3: there's you know that kind of stuffy 60s atmosphere so it's very um inhuman

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Track 3: in that sense you know yeah.

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Track 2: And the idea of space itself feels very inhuman like it's this liminal space

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Track 2: between real places almost and that's really captured really well in this movie

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Track 2: that there's just a lot of literally nothing going on like there's just a lot of space in the movie.

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Track 3: And then And then I also noticed when they use the bones to kill the other ape,

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Track 3: all I could think was, you know, there's the barbarism, there's the Darwinian

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Track 3: destroy the weakest link is implied in that scene.

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Track 3: Like there's so much about the human experience in this movie.

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Track 2: Yeah, the...

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Track 2: People or apes whatever we want to call them are just

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Track 2: such an interesting little i guess they only

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Track 2: last like 30 minutes but they they leave such a great impact because they're

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Track 2: one of the few points in the movie where there's characters that you can actually

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Track 2: attach yourself to and think about whereas the rest of the movie there's four

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Track 2: people total in a three hour movie i mean that's not very much to really sink into no it's not.

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Track 1: Yeah and the the thing about the like the the apes

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Track 1: the eight people on there too is what was i going to

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Track 1: say i mean i mean you sort of i almost draw a

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Track 1: comparison so you have like the the like the tribes

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Track 1: or the groups or whatever you want to call them of apes that are fighting and

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Track 1: they learn to eventually kill each other and then you see sort of like the evolution

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Track 1: which is the next moment is when they're on the space station and uh the the

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Track 1: doctor um hayward haywood is going to i guess he first goes to the the first

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Track 1: station to then go to another ship to take him to the moon.

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Track 1: He meets with that group that are implied to be sort of Soviets or Russians or something like that.

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Track 1: And then you all of a sudden have this new sort of like tribal,

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Track 1: you know, issues with, or I don't know the exact word, but it's like we've evolved to,

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Track 1: something that seemingly is great, but it's really, I don't know, not.

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Track 1: We're not talking to each other, not helping each other. They're just independently

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Track 1: building all this technology, but for what.

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Track 3: And and i noticed in your notes that you mentioned the uh the clavius epidemic

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Track 3: which um i mean that's that's propaganda right they don't want people to actually

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Track 3: know what they're doing so they so they have to say that they're that there's

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Track 3: an epidemic happening and that that's the concern right yeah or is there actually an epidemic no.

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Track 2: It's all a cover story to cover up.

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Track 3: Yeah yeah that's what i thought yeah yeah that's what i thought yeah.

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Track 1: And you could tell that the We had like the other, like the Russians didn't

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Track 1: really believe it, but they're like, we don't really have any other explanation.

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Track 3: Yeah.

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Track 2: Yeah. It's funny. The only two like overt political symbols in the movie are

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Track 2: the Soviet hammer and sickle on the one person's bag and the Soviets bag.

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Track 2: And then a few minutes later, we get to see the NATO flag in the corner when

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Track 2: they're giving the talk with the American flag opposite of it.

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Track 2: So it's just so very clear that we're continuing to hold on to our tribes,

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Track 2: our affiliations, as opposed to actually cooperating and working together.

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Track 2: So the characters from the very beginning of the movie are really not supposed

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Track 2: to be that much more evolved or that different than the characters later in

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Track 2: the movie. There's still...

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Track 2: In this weird liminal transitional space where they're becoming their full person they're.

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Track 3: Never fully evolved well and like and like evan said uh it's it's smack dab

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Track 3: in the middle of the space race right so it's very much a reflection of the time as well i'm.

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Track 2: Gonna say it's not explicit and i don't know what kubrick's views were but he

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Track 2: doesn't seem to be that supportive of the.

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Track 3: Concept of.

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Track 2: The space race i don't feel this movie is really supporting these tribes they

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Track 2: see them as a vestige of our animal past.

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Track 3: Yeah well if you think about uh dr strange love uh that's very much a a critique

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Track 3: of of the red scare you know he's he's making fun of of the military industrial

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Track 3: complex the communists are coming for our precious bodily fluids and all that

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Track 3: so you can kind of get an idea of where where kubrick uh is coming from yeah.

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Track 1: And like the technology i mean that's what i I've read some from other movies

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Track 1: I've done on Kubrick where kind of learning a bit about his politics.

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Track 1: I mean, generally, I've landed on a lot of his films seeming to be,

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Track 1: I don't want to call them conservative, but they could lean that way.

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Track 1: And that actually was one of my questions that I don't even know if I put this,

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Track 1: maybe I put this on. I mean, this could be maybe something to discuss now.

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Track 1: It's like, do you think that this is a film that is a conservative film?

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Track 1: I don't necessarily mean like, did he mean it to be one necessarily,

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Track 1: but like, does it come off as like, Oh, you know, the space rate.

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Track 1: I mean, I guess you could two different political people could be asked the

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Track 1: same question and give us two different answers.

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Track 1: But like in your perception, do you think this is supposed to give off the vibe

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Track 1: of like space is great? Like this is something that we should actually.

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Track 1: You know, uh, and thinking about in the context of 1968 as well,

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Track 1: like, is this something that we should be trying to achieve or is this just a waste?

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Track 1: You know, he takes that flight later on and he's like the only guy on the plane both times.

Speaker: 00:18:59

Track 3: Yeah. And I noticed that I noticed all the.

Speaker: 00:19:02

Track 1: The, such a waste of resources.

Speaker: 00:19:03

Track 3: Yeah. The empty seats. And you know, it's implied that this is a,

Speaker: 00:19:08

Track 3: like an elite group of people who are, are awarded these privileges to make

Speaker: 00:19:12

Track 3: these travels because nobody else is in those seats.

Speaker: 00:19:14

Track 3: And back, but back to your original question of I don't think it's an overtly

Speaker: 00:19:18

Track 3: political movie, but I think it's culturally conservative.

Speaker: 00:19:24

Track 3: But again, I think that's just kind of a reflection of the time with the men

Speaker: 00:19:27

Track 3: in the suits and well-groomed.

Speaker: 00:19:29

Track 3: And then the women are the flight attendants or the space attendants or whatever.

Speaker: 00:19:35

Track 3: So culturally conservative, sure. Overtly political overall,

Speaker: 00:19:39

Track 3: not really. I don't think so.

Speaker: 00:19:40

Track 2: Yeah. And I just want to grasp on something that you said there.

Speaker: 00:19:42

Track 2: There's all these seats that are empty because it's reserved for only an elite.

Speaker: 00:19:44

Track 2: But then why are there so many seats?

Speaker: 00:19:46

Track 2: You know, Jeff Bezos doesn't have a full jet with a ton of seats that he flies

Speaker: 00:19:51

Track 2: around in. He has his own personal jet.

Speaker: 00:19:52

Track 2: So there's just so many contradictions in this movie.

Speaker: 00:19:55

Track 3: And he goes up to the space station in a Pan-American jet. And it's very much

Speaker: 00:19:59

Track 3: like a commercial airliner.

Speaker: 00:20:02

Track 2: And then he has to pay for his own phone calls. Like there's something weird going on here.

Speaker: 00:20:06

Track 3: Which are a whopping $1.70 for space calls, by the way.

Speaker: 00:20:11

Track 2: Yeah, to have a space call with Stanley Kubrick's daughter.

Speaker: 00:20:14

Track 1: Yeah. Well, it's, um, the way I look at it is almost like, it's almost like two things.

Speaker: 00:20:20

Track 1: One, I feel like Kubrick was trying to just imagine what,

Speaker: 00:20:24

Track 1: current travel like you get on a jet and you go to

Speaker: 00:20:27

Track 1: london like oh this is what it would look like except you get to go to the

Speaker: 00:20:30

Track 1: moon so like he was just in a way mimicking what

Speaker: 00:20:32

Track 1: it would be like but then showing like the cost that he

Speaker: 00:20:35

Track 1: has to pay for his call and you know who knows

Speaker: 00:20:38

Track 1: who's paying for this trip i guess it's nato or the u.s or whatever

Speaker: 00:20:41

Track 1: but it's like still run by corporations and

Speaker: 00:20:45

Track 1: i think there is a moment i i didn't clock when it was and

Speaker: 00:20:47

Track 1: i can't remember no is it do they say who uh the

Speaker: 00:20:51

Track 1: company who runs the phone does it say ibm at&t

Speaker: 00:20:54

Track 1: bell atlantic oh bell okay and then there's another moment where they show

Speaker: 00:20:57

Track 1: the ibm logo i don't think it was actually paid i

Speaker: 00:21:01

Track 1: don't think it was a um i don't think it's like the same way you

Speaker: 00:21:03

Track 1: get now with a um product placement kind of thing i think it just that's what

Speaker: 00:21:08

Track 1: the computer was that they had that's you know it was 1968 they didn't have

Speaker: 00:21:11

Track 1: you know japanese computers and america all these other things and i just it

Speaker: 00:21:16

Track 1: just It strikes me that he's showing you what it would be like to do this,

Speaker: 00:21:21

Track 1: but we've evolved to the point where no one can actually do this,

Speaker: 00:21:25

Track 1: probably because everyone on Earth is suffering as now.

Speaker: 00:21:29

Track 1: It's very prophetic in that way.

Speaker: 00:21:32

Track 3: Yeah. They don't have the means.

Speaker: 00:21:33

Track 2: Yeah. And just to connect this again to Dr. Strangelove, the big corporate sponsor in Dr.

Speaker: 00:21:38

Track 2: Strangelove is the Coca-Cola Company. And there's the famous line,

Speaker: 00:21:40

Track 2: you'll have to answer to the Coca-Cola Company. I don't think Kubrick likes

Speaker: 00:21:45

Track 2: this world where corporations are really conducting business on behalf of the American public.

Speaker: 00:21:51

Track 2: So I think that there's some criticism or some satire going on here.

Speaker: 00:21:55

Track 2: But it's so less avert. It's so covered in so many layers of distance that we

Speaker: 00:22:01

Track 2: can't actually see it anymore.

Speaker: 00:22:02

Track 3: It's very subtle. On the Wikipedia for the Discovery ship, it just says the

Speaker: 00:22:07

Track 3: affiliation is the United States. So there's no, um, in apart from the Pan American

Speaker: 00:22:11

Track 3: flight to the space station, I don't think there's an implied, um, corporate entity.

Speaker: 00:22:16

Track 3: Kind of owns it or anything like that.

Speaker: 00:22:18

Track 2: Everything on the space center has corporate sponsorship there's a howard johnson's i think.

Speaker: 00:22:23

Track 1: It's yes i forgot about showed in ibm.

Speaker: 00:22:26

Track 2: Uh they talk about brands or they don't talk about them brands are shown yeah.

Speaker: 00:22:31

Track 1: Yeah you know another stark this is unrelated

Speaker: 00:22:34

Track 1: i don't think they show the brand of the food they eat like there's a

Speaker: 00:22:37

Track 1: few scenes where they eat and they showed a bunch of different versions like

Speaker: 00:22:40

Track 1: the liquid like the straw he's drinking you know

Speaker: 00:22:43

Track 1: i don't know what it was like vegetables out of

Speaker: 00:22:46

Track 1: a thing and then later they eat the sandwiches on the little rover on

Speaker: 00:22:49

Track 1: moon but then it's like you have all these

Speaker: 00:22:52

Track 1: weird foods that aren't even really real but then you go back to the very opening

Speaker: 00:22:55

Track 1: shots of the you know the apes or the whatever you want to call them and they're

Speaker: 00:23:00

Track 1: sitting there like eating raw meat around yeah we're actually eating from the

Speaker: 00:23:04

Track 1: land it's sort of like another interesting you know juxtaposition of the, you know,

Speaker: 00:23:10

Track 1: eating meat and now they're eating, you know, oh, it's like,

Speaker: 00:23:12

Track 1: like, this is that, is that Turkey?

Speaker: 00:23:14

Track 1: It's like, you know, it's getting better every time. My thought is it's not really Turkey.

Speaker: 00:23:17

Track 1: Maybe there is no more Turkey and they've killed all the turkeys.

Speaker: 00:23:20

Track 1: And so now it's like, you know, Turkey flavored Turkey or something. I don't know.

Speaker: 00:23:24

Track 3: It's, it's, it's luxurious, but it's utilitarian, right?

Speaker: 00:23:28

Track 3: It's, it's simple. It's, it's what's, what's effective.

Speaker: 00:23:32

Track 3: And I think, again, I think he's just going based off of how NASA was conducting

Speaker: 00:23:36

Track 3: their space operations with you know limited resources limited payloads i guess i should say.

Speaker: 00:23:41

Track 2: Yeah and the it's kind of interesting the way food is

Speaker: 00:23:44

Track 2: presented throughout the movie because it becomes less and less real as

Speaker: 00:23:47

Track 2: it goes on because they're drinking drinks and eating food on the

Speaker: 00:23:50

Track 2: space station that kind of looks like food and then you get to the point where

Speaker: 00:23:53

Track 2: they're on the uh jupiter mission and they're just like eating paste just like

Speaker: 00:23:58

Track 2: colorful pastes and it's just so repulsive but even the very first instance

Speaker: 00:24:02

Track 2: where it shows the eight people killing and then eating their i I think they're

Speaker: 00:24:06

Track 2: tapers. I don't know what they were actually supposed to represent.

Speaker: 00:24:09

Track 3: But I mean, the whole thing is a statement about evolution, right?

Speaker: 00:24:12

Track 2: Right.

Speaker: 00:24:12

Track 3: And pretty much the whole thing.

Speaker: 00:24:14

Track 2: But it's also not appealing. As soon as they kill those tapers,

Speaker: 00:24:17

Track 2: you start to hear flies and you can just like feel the heat and smell the rotted

Speaker: 00:24:22

Track 2: meat. And it's just so uncomfortable.

Speaker: 00:24:25

Track 2: Food is such an uncomfortable concept, even up to the very end where he's again

Speaker: 00:24:30

Track 2: eating what appears to be just like regular real food. It just looks so unappealing.

Speaker: 00:24:34

Track 2: It's just like smeared all over his plate. It's just so strange and uncomfortable.

Speaker: 00:24:39

Track 3: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:24:39

Track 1: I wonder what they use for the raw meat. I wonder if it actually just was like

Speaker: 00:24:42

Track 1: meat that they didn't actually eat.

Speaker: 00:24:44

Track 1: I didn't, I didn't like look as deeply into like the, all of the,

Speaker: 00:24:48

Track 1: uh, the making of it, of it.

Speaker: 00:24:50

Track 1: I've long time ago. I watched the, like the, some of the, there's probably like

Speaker: 00:24:54

Track 1: 50 hours of, of documentaries at least on the making of this film,

Speaker: 00:24:59

Track 1: you know, 50 times the amount of the actual film itself.

Speaker: 00:25:02

Track 3: Yeah. I mean, it's so, it's so stunning and so believable.

Speaker: 00:25:06

Track 3: Like i it's it's hard to believe that it's made in 1968 because it's it holds

Speaker: 00:25:12

Track 3: up so well it's so tangible and so convincing.

Speaker: 00:25:16

Track 2: You really get a visceral feel of what's

Speaker: 00:25:18

Track 2: going on on the screen and i think just talking

Speaker: 00:25:21

Track 2: about what this movie even is it's it was sold as an

Speaker: 00:25:24

Track 2: action adventure movie but it just feels like it's so much further from the

Speaker: 00:25:29

Track 2: truth especially you know like this post star wars world or this post star trek

Speaker: 00:25:34

Track 2: world where an action adventure set in space has things that happen whereas

Speaker: 00:25:39

Track 2: this movie is two and a half hours long and not much happens it's.

Speaker: 00:25:42

Track 3: All atmosphere it's all um exposition making you feel like you're there.

Speaker: 00:25:46

Track 2: Yeah and it's so at least in my experience it was so un like unpleasant so visceral

Speaker: 00:25:52

Track 2: so contradicting so uncomfortable like space itself is not a place you want

Speaker: 00:25:57

Track 2: to be it's just vast empty and just void of human contact and human emotion.

Speaker: 00:26:04

Track 1: Yeah and i think i don't know if i think i told you this levi before

Speaker: 00:26:07

Track 1: is i used to like in my in my like you know younger self

Speaker: 00:26:10

Track 1: would be like oh you know 2001 is easily it's

Speaker: 00:26:13

Track 1: a you know five star film like it's perfect there's nothing wrong

Speaker: 00:26:15

Track 1: with it like the visual everything about it and when i

Speaker: 00:26:18

Track 1: when i watch it now like i do still think that the

Speaker: 00:26:21

Track 1: visuals and the effects and everything thing that he was able to

Speaker: 00:26:23

Track 1: do is like an incredible achievement again 1968

Speaker: 00:26:26

Track 1: to pull this off is very impressive everything looks

Speaker: 00:26:30

Track 1: the effects actually look better than most movies now

Speaker: 00:26:33

Track 1: with special effects you know that are made in 2025

Speaker: 00:26:36

Track 1: with you know ai on you know ironically um but like i think about the movie

Speaker: 00:26:40

Track 1: now and it just it doesn't do i don't have the same you know uh reaction to

Speaker: 00:26:45

Track 1: it i find the visuals to be sometimes almost too much even though they're so

Speaker: 00:26:50

Track 1: impressive and i just am was not compelled by what I would,

Speaker: 00:26:55

Track 1: loosely call a plot and i i feel like i feel like it's like a hot take to be

Speaker: 00:27:00

Track 1: like i like it's a good movie but is it a good movie or is i don't know i.

Speaker: 00:27:05

Track 3: I i had i had the opposite experience

Speaker: 00:27:08

Track 3: i was completely enthralled the whole time and just marveling at the fact that

Speaker: 00:27:14

Track 3: they were able to accomplish that in 1968 um but but also like like space movies

Speaker: 00:27:21

Track 3: now they're not going to take the time to do that much exposition and that much focus on atmosphere.

Speaker: 00:27:27

Track 3: Now they just kind of thrust you into everything. And again,

Speaker: 00:27:30

Track 3: that's just a change of pace and time. The way that movies are made now is different.

Speaker: 00:27:36

Track 1: I think I'm going to be canceled now for my opinion on 2001.

Speaker: 00:27:39

Track 3: How dare you?

Speaker: 00:27:43

Track 1: Everyone keep listening. It's okay. We're still going to talk about 2001.

Speaker: 00:27:48

Track 2: Your state of Stanley Kubrick will be at your door soon.

Speaker: 00:27:51

Track 1: Yeah they're cease and desist.

Speaker: 00:27:53

Track 2: I feel like i'm somewhere between the two because i

Speaker: 00:27:56

Track 2: really was kind of surprised at how much this

Speaker: 00:27:59

Track 2: movie like made me feel uncomfortable and what it like really pushed

Speaker: 00:28:02

Track 2: me to feel about space and thinking about these things

Speaker: 00:28:05

Track 2: that i really hadn't thought about since i was a kid watching this

Speaker: 00:28:08

Track 2: for the first time uh but at the same time in support

Speaker: 00:28:11

Track 2: of evan's statement i don't know that i would even consider this like top three

Speaker: 00:28:14

Track 2: cubrick films you know there's something not quite there in this movie for me

Speaker: 00:28:20

Track 2: it it really elicits emotion but i it just feels very the emotion feels very

Speaker: 00:28:24

Track 2: raw if that makes any sense it just feels like an experience not like something

Speaker: 00:28:27

Track 2: that's really worth thinking about too much it's.

Speaker: 00:28:30

Track 3: Certainly not as edgy as his later stuff like uh full metal jacket and the shining

Speaker: 00:28:35

Track 3: which are my two favorites but uh but i still very much appreciate it for what it is.

Speaker: 00:28:41

Track 2: Yeah i think that's the best summary of it is it it's definitely the best space

Speaker: 00:28:46

Track 2: movie i've ever seen not that i've seen a ton of them but like i would take this over star wars yeah.

Speaker: 00:28:52

Track 3: Me too at this point in my life yeah.

Speaker: 00:28:54

Track 1: I was gonna i was gonna avoid saying this

Speaker: 00:28:57

Track 1: but i'm gonna say it anyway is that is that it's

Speaker: 00:29:01

Track 1: often imbued in like a comparative sort of

Speaker: 00:29:04

Track 1: as the uh soviet film solaris by

Speaker: 00:29:07

Track 1: andre turkovsky which i covered a couple years ago or

Speaker: 00:29:10

Track 1: a year ago with um rev left and he

Speaker: 00:29:15

Track 1: when he made that film it was intentionally he intentionally said

Speaker: 00:29:18

Track 1: in some of the things he wrote that he wasn't trying to make like

Speaker: 00:29:21

Track 1: a his version of 2001 even though i think he's lying about that i think he was

Speaker: 00:29:26

Track 1: sort of trying to make making a version of that or like his version granted

Speaker: 00:29:30

Track 1: it was based on a different book so it's a different film it's not like he was

Speaker: 00:29:33

Track 1: doing the same thing but it's a much different film with like much deeper uh you know,

Speaker: 00:29:40

Track 1: connective connectivity amongst of like feeling

Speaker: 00:29:43

Track 1: and they don't spend a lot of that time on like

Speaker: 00:29:46

Track 1: the space of it it's more of the you know

Speaker: 00:29:48

Track 1: the feelings of it so it's a different kind of film and again i don't want to

Speaker: 00:29:52

Track 1: try i'm not going to compare them which one's better but i still think that

Speaker: 00:29:55

Track 1: 2001 is like a four four and a half star film i just think that like the shining

Speaker: 00:29:59

Track 1: and eyes wide shut and dr strange love to me are better overall in his body

Speaker: 00:30:05

Track 1: of work or just preferred by me i.

Speaker: 00:30:08

Track 3: Can respect that yeah.

Speaker: 00:30:09

Track 1: It's like it's like it's like a very high bar you know um yes yeah so oh.

Speaker: 00:30:16

Track 3: But but but how we need to stay on the.

Speaker: 00:30:18

Track 1: Top of the eye right yeah.

Speaker: 00:30:19

Track 3: Yeah because we didn't want to get too much into the the visuals like like you said in your notes.

Speaker: 00:30:24

Track 1: Yeah i i didn't i don't want to i know we could spend

Speaker: 00:30:27

Track 1: this it's it's hard but so yeah i mean so we can well let's

Speaker: 00:30:30

Track 1: i mean let's talk about how and sort of maybe we can

Speaker: 00:30:33

Track 1: go deeper into you know maybe people haven't read that

Speaker: 00:30:36

Track 1: that short story you referenced before but just in

Speaker: 00:30:38

Track 1: general like some of the things i'm thinking about how and

Speaker: 00:30:42

Track 1: then i know joey you like talk about the the

Speaker: 00:30:44

Track 1: outset and sort of your you know the the concept of just modern ai and sort

Speaker: 00:30:49

Track 1: of how you view how and one of the strangest things i think that maybe they

Speaker: 00:30:53

Track 1: introduce him is they're talking about him as this one of two versions of him

Speaker: 00:30:57

Track 1: that exist they also mention later when he's talking about who like his creator was He says, Dr.

Speaker: 00:31:03

Track 1: Langley, which to me made it sound like he was created by the CIA.

Speaker: 00:31:06

Track 1: Is that just what you're just supposed to assume?

Speaker: 00:31:09

Track 1: I don't know. Maybe that's Langley based. Anyway, and so he's created,

Speaker: 00:31:13

Track 1: but they give an interview to all of the members of the crew,

Speaker: 00:31:16

Track 1: but they also interview Hal. And that's just weird to me.

Speaker: 00:31:21

Track 1: You're going to interview this thing. I don't know.

Speaker: 00:31:27

Track 1: How do you, I don't know where I'm going with this. It's weird to the concept

Speaker: 00:31:31

Track 1: of interviewing the AI that humans created about their mission.

Speaker: 00:31:36

Track 2: It is weird, but how many podcasts or how many interviews came out where they

Speaker: 00:31:41

Track 2: were just typing in questions to AI as soon as that became big news?

Speaker: 00:31:45

Track 2: I mean, it's strange and it feels wrong, but it's exactly what happened as soon

Speaker: 00:31:50

Track 2: as that was an opportunity.

Speaker: 00:31:52

Track 1: Fuck, you're right. Yes. Yeah, yeah. What is ChatTBT but interviewing AI?

Speaker: 00:31:58

Track 2: Right.

Speaker: 00:31:59

Track 3: What struck me about it was I found it very prescient. I think Hal...

Speaker: 00:32:06

Track 3: Operates very much like the language

Speaker: 00:32:09

Track 3: models operate you know in my limited experience with

Speaker: 00:32:12

Track 3: chat gpt it's very formal and it's

Speaker: 00:32:15

Track 3: very polite and it picks up on social cues

Speaker: 00:32:18

Track 3: to a certain degree and it can it can detect um tone and and sarcasm and like

Speaker: 00:32:25

Track 3: it's it can it can be very convincing and the way that hal communicates to me

Speaker: 00:32:30

Track 3: was was very eerily um similar to what we're dealing with right now yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:37

Track 2: And that that feeling is just elevated by the fact that the actors themselves,

Speaker: 00:32:42

Track 2: act so canned and computer-like they don't seem to have very much emotion in

Speaker: 00:32:47

Track 2: their voice whereas Hal always has the exact same feeling in his voice or their

Speaker: 00:32:53

Track 2: voice whatever we want to call it.

Speaker: 00:32:54

Track 1: The question then is is which one is mimicking the other yeah right like that.

Speaker: 00:32:59

Track 3: Goes back to the question of the developers.

Speaker: 00:33:01

Track 1: Yeah it's just like the the idea I mean it reminds me

Speaker: 00:33:04

Track 1: I think they have a couple i think at one point they ask them

Speaker: 00:33:07

Track 1: you know and i think the the main astronaut

Speaker: 00:33:10

Track 1: says that he acts like he has genuine emotions acting like

Speaker: 00:33:13

Track 1: them and then he says we can't ask we can't answer he's capable of

Speaker: 00:33:16

Track 1: real emotions and it it should be obvious that he's not capable of real emotions

Speaker: 00:33:22

Track 1: he's he's not human and and i don't i mean i suppose there's i don't know tech

Speaker: 00:33:28

Track 1: bros that'll tell me that version 512 of ChatGPT will be capable of human emotion or something,

Speaker: 00:33:35

Track 1: but they're not capable of that.

Speaker: 00:33:37

Track 1: And it's very clear that he's a computer.

Speaker: 00:33:40

Track 1: They say he's the most reliable computer ever made. This is what he's built

Speaker: 00:33:44

Track 1: for, to be able to assess situations. Oh, is this system failing?

Speaker: 00:33:49

Track 1: Oh, let me look at your drawing. That's also a very troubling scene that makes

Speaker: 00:33:56

Track 1: me deeply uncomfortable is when he shows him the sketch and like holds it up

Speaker: 00:33:59

Track 1: really close to the lens yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:01

Track 2: There's just like so many moments in this movie that just make me feel squeamish,

Speaker: 00:34:06

Track 2: It's really interesting that line you said where he seems like he's human.

Speaker: 00:34:09

Track 2: He certainly seems like he's human, I think is the word that – I think that's

Speaker: 00:34:12

Track 2: Dave, maybe Frank says it. The two characters are so similar.

Speaker: 00:34:15

Track 1: Oh, did they say seems? Oh, seems, okay.

Speaker: 00:34:18

Track 2: Yeah, I mean, he goes back. He corrects himself, saying like,

Speaker: 00:34:20

Track 2: yeah, he seems like he has real emotion.

Speaker: 00:34:23

Track 2: But, I mean, we could get lost on this rabbit hole, and I suggest we don't because

Speaker: 00:34:26

Track 2: it's just too navel-gazy. But it's Dr.

Speaker: 00:34:30

Track 2: David Bowman that says that, right? He's not a real human being either.

Speaker: 00:34:33

Track 2: He's a fictional character that we've imbued with human feelings.

Speaker: 00:34:36

Track 2: And the same way that we've imbued this computer character with human feelings

Speaker: 00:34:40

Track 2: in this movie, they're all just like representations of humanity that we know.

Speaker: 00:34:46

Track 2: We know it's a movie. We know it's not real. We know that hell's not a real

Speaker: 00:34:49

Track 2: thing, but we feel for it and we think about it.

Speaker: 00:34:51

Track 3: I was going to say, back to what you were saying about it not having emotions,

Speaker: 00:34:56

Track 3: I feel like it's implied that it does because some of its last words are, I'm afraid.

Speaker: 00:35:02

Track 3: And the whole reason that it sabotages the crew is because it realizes that

Speaker: 00:35:08

Track 3: it's going to get shut off and it develops distrust.

Speaker: 00:35:11

Track 3: So whether those emotions are real or not, they're very human.

Speaker: 00:35:16

Track 2: Yeah and the last time i watched it i just watched it right before we started

Speaker: 00:35:21

Track 2: here what really got me is i i still can't figure out why he plays the video

Speaker: 00:35:26

Track 2: as his last effort at you know his quote-unquote life he he didn't need to maybe.

Speaker: 00:35:31

Track 3: It was programmed that if they shut off the howl 9000 that the video would play.

Speaker: 00:35:36

Track 2: That's an assumption yeah but yeah they they i think they would have assumed

Speaker: 00:35:40

Track 2: that they're shutting off the howl that the mission just would have been failed at that point yeah.

Speaker: 00:35:44

Track 1: My theory which i don't know again this is true or

Speaker: 00:35:47

Track 1: not is that the video would play when it

Speaker: 00:35:50

Track 1: reached a certain distance from jupiter

Speaker: 00:35:53

Track 1: and so like it just it's hard to believe the coincidence

Speaker: 00:35:56

Track 1: would be like he's down there pulling out the the hard drives or

Speaker: 00:35:59

Track 1: whatever and then at that exact moment they're like 500 you

Speaker: 00:36:02

Track 1: know million of what i don't know some distance from jupiter and it plays but

Speaker: 00:36:06

Track 1: maybe it was his attempt that you know if i if i share this secret with you

Speaker: 00:36:10

Track 1: will you like now see that i was doing this act out of you know the the mission

Speaker: 00:36:16

Track 1: and not simply to hurt you like i do have feelings so yeah maybe yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:20

Track 2: It definitely plays into the idea that he's more human because if it was a machine

Speaker: 00:36:24

Track 2: there would be no reason to play that video because he would be gone whereas

Speaker: 00:36:28

Track 2: human beings were always thinking about death as this something that happens

Speaker: 00:36:31

Track 2: but life continues it's so i at least in my mind i want to think that he chose

Speaker: 00:36:37

Track 2: to play that video as his last ounce of actual effort.

Speaker: 00:36:40

Track 1: Maybe so.

Speaker: 00:36:41

Track 2: As he's singing Daisy.

Speaker: 00:36:42

Track 1: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:42

Track 2: Because he's afraid.

Speaker: 00:36:43

Track 3: I love that.

Speaker: 00:36:43

Track 2: He's afraid he'll be forgotten.

Speaker: 00:36:44

Track 3: I hadn't...

Speaker: 00:36:45

Track 3: I hadn't considered all these different possibilities.

Speaker: 00:36:48

Track 1: No.

Speaker: 00:36:48

Track 3: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:49

Track 1: I, I, I was like in my head, just has convinced that it like turned on at a

Speaker: 00:36:53

Track 1: certain moment, but it does make a lot more.

Speaker: 00:36:55

Track 1: I mean, in a weird way that he would play this as his last ditch effort.

Speaker: 00:37:00

Track 3: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:37:00

Track 1: Well, I think one of the things that also, I don't know if this,

Speaker: 00:37:03

Track 1: you got this to Levi from like a lot of this.

Speaker: 00:37:05

Track 1: I mean, when, when I say something, this seems like maybe uncomfortable,

Speaker: 00:37:07

Track 1: like in some ways that's like a good thing.

Speaker: 00:37:10

Track 1: Like there's lots of films I've watched that make me deeply uncomfortable,

Speaker: 00:37:13

Track 1: but like makes me think about them.

Speaker: 00:37:15

Track 1: And there's a lot of moments, probably in the last, before the very final moment

Speaker: 00:37:19

Track 1: when they get to Jupiter, where

Speaker: 00:37:21

Track 1: the only sound you really get is of him breathing, of Bowman breathing.

Speaker: 00:37:27

Track 1: And it's very uncomfortable because one, it gives you this sort of,

Speaker: 00:37:32

Track 1: maybe for me, of being lost in space. That would be horrific.

Speaker: 00:37:37

Track 1: You're floating away and you have to wait until you just run out of air and

Speaker: 00:37:41

Track 1: die. And the constant breathing of all this, like the things that happened is

Speaker: 00:37:45

Track 1: just really hard to watch almost.

Speaker: 00:37:48

Track 3: Well, one of the reasons that this movie was praised was because it was a very...

Speaker: 00:37:54

Track 3: At least scientifically plausible depiction of space

Speaker: 00:37:57

Track 3: right like all the sounds are coming from the

Speaker: 00:38:00

Track 3: crew and from the ship there's no sounds coming

Speaker: 00:38:03

Track 3: from outside it's not like star wars where you hear explosions in space and

Speaker: 00:38:07

Track 3: you know that's that wouldn't happen because space is a vacuum so so all that

Speaker: 00:38:10

Track 3: you're left with is is the warning beeps and the breathing and and uh all the

Speaker: 00:38:16

Track 3: things that you would actually hear if you were in this situation apart from

Speaker: 00:38:19

Track 3: the classic classical music obviously.

Speaker: 00:38:21

Track 1: Yeah which.

Speaker: 00:38:24

Track 2: Is this is always playing out there in space they just haven't told yes.

Speaker: 00:38:26

Track 3: It's it's just always playing out there.

Speaker: 00:38:28

Track 2: Nobody.

Speaker: 00:38:29

Track 1: Knows it's just a spotify playlist you know just it's gone you've.

Speaker: 00:38:32

Track 3: Heard of flat earth but that's the real secret is that there's always classical

Speaker: 00:38:35

Track 3: music playing in space always Wagner always Richard Strauss.

Speaker: 00:38:41

Track 1: The music is I mean we didn't even mention it

Speaker: 00:38:44

Track 1: really I guess I briefly did it's like the music is like especially the

Speaker: 00:38:47

Track 1: the opening and some of the other moments when they're when the

Speaker: 00:38:50

Track 1: apes you know the model of the peers is just like very

Speaker: 00:38:53

Track 1: iconic but they like have no music at

Speaker: 00:38:56

Track 1: the times where it's like they're they're in some and like a lesser

Speaker: 00:38:59

Track 1: film or in like a modern film they would put some

Speaker: 00:39:02

Track 1: kind of like low music in there but they don't and i

Speaker: 00:39:04

Track 1: think to its benefit it's um makes all of

Speaker: 00:39:07

Track 1: those scenes just like like in some ways like i don't usually complain a two

Speaker: 00:39:12

Track 1: and a half hour movie is like fairly long it's not you know it's not three hours

Speaker: 00:39:15

Track 1: it's two and a half hours but there are some of those scenes that just felt

Speaker: 00:39:19

Track 1: very long to me more than they had in the past not necessarily a bad way but

Speaker: 00:39:25

Track 1: just in a i know sometimes.

Speaker: 00:39:26

Track 3: Sometimes less is more and they use that to build the tension.

Speaker: 00:39:30

Track 1: Yes they do yeah.

Speaker: 00:39:32

Track 2: There's actually uh there was an original score made for 2001 space odyssey

Speaker: 00:39:36

Track 2: to take up the entire film like a classic film uh composed by alex north but

Speaker: 00:39:41

Track 2: kubrick just preferred nothing,

Speaker: 00:39:44

Track 2: over the compositions of Alex North and that Alex North composition is actually

Speaker: 00:39:49

Track 2: available to listen to and it,

Speaker: 00:39:51

Track 2: feels like a movie soundtrack it would make the movie feel

Speaker: 00:39:54

Track 2: like a movie and that's why most people

Speaker: 00:39:57

Track 2: believe he took it out and it was just this huge slap

Speaker: 00:40:00

Track 2: in the face alex north because it was up to the point where it's premiered that

Speaker: 00:40:02

Track 2: he thought his music was going to be in the movie oh geez he sits through the

Speaker: 00:40:06

Track 2: movie and he's he's like um you know it's one thing uh to be replaced by richard

Speaker: 00:40:11

Track 2: strauss like i understand that but my composition was replaced by nothing it's

Speaker: 00:40:16

Track 2: like And that's the embarrassment that I have to face.

Speaker: 00:40:19

Track 1: I wonder if anyone's ever cut the film with that score in it,

Speaker: 00:40:23

Track 1: like to see what it would sound like. Because that would be interesting.

Speaker: 00:40:25

Track 3: That's a great question.

Speaker: 00:40:27

Track 1: Someone has, right? I mean.

Speaker: 00:40:28

Track 2: You can just imagine that it wouldn't feel the same.

Speaker: 00:40:31

Track 2: The way the music works in 2001 is that it's a part of the presentation itself.

Speaker: 00:40:37

Track 2: Like the music stands on its own, obviously because they're their own classical

Speaker: 00:40:40

Track 2: pieces, but they elicit emotion on their own.

Speaker: 00:40:43

Track 2: Whereas a regular score in a movie like

Speaker: 00:40:46

Track 2: supplements what's going on in a movie it's part of the movie it's not like

Speaker: 00:40:50

Track 2: an onslaught of just images and film and i don't know i guess i'm not articulating

Speaker: 00:40:56

Track 2: this very well but it it doesn't feel like the music is driving the action in

Speaker: 00:40:59

Track 2: the movie or the movie is driving the action in the music it's just it all comes together at once yeah.

Speaker: 00:41:04

Track 3: No so to answer that i agree to answer that question it looks like there is

Speaker: 00:41:08

Track 3: a version of 2001 a space odyssey with Alex North's soundtrack on Vimeo.

Speaker: 00:41:13

Track 3: It looks like that's the only one I can find, but it looks like it does exist.

Speaker: 00:41:16

Track 1: Yeah, that doesn't...

Speaker: 00:41:17

Track 3: So that's interesting.

Speaker: 00:41:18

Track 1: He probably, his kids put it together, like, he shall not be forgotten.

Speaker: 00:41:25

Track 2: I think to go back to something that was said before about the,

Speaker: 00:41:29

Track 2: all you hear is the breathing and as you're seeing the vastness of space.

Speaker: 00:41:33

Track 2: And that's why I don't get this idea that this isn't a personal film.

Speaker: 00:41:37

Track 2: It's not about the individual people on this spit

Speaker: 00:41:40

Track 2: because it's impossible not to think of yourself in

Speaker: 00:41:43

Track 2: space and thinking of the human condition that we're all just

Speaker: 00:41:46

Track 2: like floating out there i mean we're on this planet but we're all floating out

Speaker: 00:41:50

Track 2: there basically alone as far as we know and that's so you know that is the human

Speaker: 00:41:55

Track 2: condition that we're in this vast space infinite infinite possibilities but

Speaker: 00:42:01

Track 2: all we can think about is what's going on inside our own heads i.

Speaker: 00:42:04

Track 3: Also noticed um just related to that the only time you ever really see Dave

Speaker: 00:42:09

Track 3: display emotion is when he's shutting Hal down and when he's being transported

Speaker: 00:42:15

Track 3: through the Stargate like those are the only two times where you really actually

Speaker: 00:42:18

Track 3: see him visibly distressed he's completely composed the rest of the movie.

Speaker: 00:42:22

Track 2: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:42:23

Track 3: Which I'm sure is intentional.

Speaker: 00:42:24

Track 1: In a way that goes back to the, the, the flights where, you know,

Speaker: 00:42:29

Track 1: Heywood is on the flight with no one on it.

Speaker: 00:42:32

Track 1: And, you know, he doesn't really there. Yeah. There's that group of NATO people

Speaker: 00:42:35

Track 1: that are on that base or whatever, but generally everything is like very individualistic,

Speaker: 00:42:40

Track 1: which again is such a, you know, especially at this time early,

Speaker: 00:42:45

Track 1: you know, somewhat earlier in like the cold war of this very much individual

Speaker: 00:42:49

Track 1: versus kind of the collective being.

Speaker: 00:42:52

Track 1: This film makes it feel like you are alone and you are have to be this individual,

Speaker: 00:42:57

Track 1: but I don't know if Kubrick was trying to say like, that's bad or actually,

Speaker: 00:43:01

Track 1: you know, that's just what it is.

Speaker: 00:43:03

Track 1: I mean, I guess it doesn't matter what he was trying to do, but it comes off

Speaker: 00:43:07

Track 1: as like, feels very individualistic.

Speaker: 00:43:10

Track 2: Yeah. I think that goes back to your question about whether or not this is a

Speaker: 00:43:13

Track 2: conservative movie because I agree.

Speaker: 00:43:15

Track 2: I think Kubrick is trying to say that there's something horribly discomforting

Speaker: 00:43:18

Track 2: about how alone we all feel in this world.

Speaker: 00:43:20

Track 2: And I don't think he's supporting that idea.

Speaker: 00:43:24

Track 2: But I don't think he's calling for us to like make a communist revolution and

Speaker: 00:43:29

Track 2: bring us all together either.

Speaker: 00:43:31

Track 2: In that way, I guess I would argue that maybe this is a conservative film and

Speaker: 00:43:34

Track 2: that it's just saying that this is the human condition, that we're all alone,

Speaker: 00:43:37

Track 2: that we're all alienated rather than claiming that this is the result of the

Speaker: 00:43:41

Track 2: form of production that we currently live under.

Speaker: 00:43:43

Track 1: Yeah i i would i would certainly buy that

Speaker: 00:43:46

Track 1: that he's sort of put himself and like he just

Speaker: 00:43:48

Track 1: this is how he sees you know the world

Speaker: 00:43:51

Track 1: i mean going back again to uh um dr

Speaker: 00:43:55

Track 1: strange love which again is much of a satirical film but he's still also commenting

Speaker: 00:43:59

Track 1: on like this is just kind of like the way it is like we have these people creating

Speaker: 00:44:03

Track 1: nuclear bombs and they're in bunkers and they just call all the shots and they

Speaker: 00:44:08

Track 1: can destroy earth if they want to and there's nothing we can really do about it.

Speaker: 00:44:11

Track 1: And so why bother trying, which in this, it's like, this is kind of like the

Speaker: 00:44:16

Track 1: next logical step where, okay, we've destroyed everything on earth.

Speaker: 00:44:19

Track 1: Now we have to go to space to explore something new, but that's not going to

Speaker: 00:44:23

Track 1: bring us any kind of real enlightenment either.

Speaker: 00:44:25

Track 2: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:44:25

Track 3: And I feel like, I feel like it was just kind of a presumptive future where

Speaker: 00:44:31

Track 3: the, where the, the, the existing order is still there, you know, 40 years later.

Speaker: 00:44:37

Track 3: Um, and, and kind of The cultural norms are still there to a certain degree.

Speaker: 00:44:42

Track 2: Yeah. I know that you have this sort of space.

Speaker: 00:44:46

Track 3: I mean, apart from, sorry, apart from the empty chairs, I feel like that's the

Speaker: 00:44:49

Track 3: most like blatant statement about, you know, the economic reality that people

Speaker: 00:44:54

Track 3: are in is that there's all these luxury seats and nobody's in them.

Speaker: 00:45:00

Track 2: Yeah, I know we've been sort of accepting this headcanon that Earth is destroyed

Speaker: 00:45:04

Track 2: or messed up, which is very plausible.

Speaker: 00:45:07

Track 2: But they talk about going back to Earth and visiting each other's friends and

Speaker: 00:45:11

Track 2: family and their research on Earth and what they're doing in the Arctic.

Speaker: 00:45:14

Track 2: And one guy's doing research in the Baltic Sea.

Speaker: 00:45:16

Track 2: So stuff is still going on. There's still humanity. There's still community.

Speaker: 00:45:20

Track 2: And there seems to be even closer community, right? These Soviets are talking

Speaker: 00:45:24

Track 2: about visiting their friend in the United States and having these little trips together.

Speaker: 00:45:28

Track 2: So, I mean, there's at least some assumption. i mean the height of the cold

Speaker: 00:45:31

Track 2: war is going on right now the cuban missile crisis was

Speaker: 00:45:34

Track 2: only four years before this movie and they're talking about

Speaker: 00:45:37

Track 2: sort of getting together with their friends the soviets like there there is

Speaker: 00:45:40

Track 2: something there um you know on earth in this movie it's just that's not the

Speaker: 00:45:44

Track 2: focus of the movie clearly yeah and i actually found all the when the soviets

Speaker: 00:45:49

Track 2: are talking they're speaking in russian obviously and i found like a loose translation

Speaker: 00:45:54

Track 2: of the russian And but apparently the Russian was just like horrible,

Speaker: 00:45:58

Track 2: clearly spoken by people that don't know Russian very well and not translated

Speaker: 00:46:02

Track 2: for Americans because it's just unimportant. They're just speaking Russian.

Speaker: 00:46:05

Track 2: It's supposed to be gibberish, but loosely translated.

Speaker: 00:46:08

Track 2: It's them expressing actual concern for the people on the base,

Speaker: 00:46:13

Track 2: the Americans that are in this false pandemic.

Speaker: 00:46:16

Track 2: Like they appear to have bought the story hook, line and sinker.

Speaker: 00:46:19

Track 2: And their media thought is, man, that's so terrible for them. I hope they get out. OK.

Speaker: 00:46:24

Track 1: Wow. I found it so interesting that they don't translate that one,

Speaker: 00:46:28

Track 1: those like, you know, a couple of lines.

Speaker: 00:46:30

Track 1: And I actually, I didn't get a chance to look it up. I'm glad you did that.

Speaker: 00:46:34

Track 1: That's interesting. And almost, I think to your point, Levi,

Speaker: 00:46:37

Track 1: I think, I guess I was making assumptions about like what was going on on Earth

Speaker: 00:46:42

Track 1: when, you know, just because they're doing these things doesn't necessarily

Speaker: 00:46:45

Track 1: mean that, you know, Earth is, you know,

Speaker: 00:46:48

Track 1: destroyed or whatever I was, you know, saying.

Speaker: 00:46:51

Track 1: So I think that is a good point. And they're kind of just sending these people

Speaker: 00:46:56

Track 1: as sort of like these representatives, these NATO officials.

Speaker: 00:46:59

Track 1: And we didn't talk about it before, but the little meeting that Haywood has

Speaker: 00:47:03

Track 1: with the group where he kind of gives this little speech.

Speaker: 00:47:06

Track 1: And then later on the little shuttle, his two friends are like,

Speaker: 00:47:10

Track 1: oh, what a rousing speech. And I'm thinking like, that was a horrible speech.

Speaker: 00:47:13

Track 1: He didn't say literally anything at all. He just like basically read,

Speaker: 00:47:17

Track 1: you know, he could have like typed into TAL 9000, like, Give me,

Speaker: 00:47:21

Track 1: you know, one paragraph to say to these people just to, you know, make them listen to me.

Speaker: 00:47:26

Track 1: And it just was very much like, this is what we're doing.

Speaker: 00:47:29

Track 1: You know, I'm sure that's probably how, you know, government.

Speaker: 00:47:33

Track 1: Types of things might have gone on where they just this is

Speaker: 00:47:36

Track 1: the this is the u.s's position and like deal

Speaker: 00:47:38

Track 1: with it i don't know it's not really like an important part of the film i feel

Speaker: 00:47:45

Track 1: like almost like that middle section uh sorry when they yes when they go to

Speaker: 00:47:48

Track 1: the model it's kind of important to know that that's kind of what's leading

Speaker: 00:47:53

Track 1: the charge to the discovery one making its journey but yeah.

Speaker: 00:47:57

Track 2: Yeah i don't know what to make of that it's.

Speaker: 00:47:59

Track 1: Again it's not um as important but this is this is another maybe.

Speaker: 00:48:05

Track 2: I guess to one thing to build on that is what they don't talk about these missions

Speaker: 00:48:09

Track 2: is resource gathering it just appears to be scientific research period they're

Speaker: 00:48:14

Track 2: just investigating stuff yeah um and that sort of contrasts with when the bone

Speaker: 00:48:18

Track 2: is thrown up in the air and it has that famous what is that called a jump cut

Speaker: 00:48:22

Track 2: yeah it's one of like the best.

Speaker: 00:48:24

Track 1: Maybe ever like in the history of film probably.

Speaker: 00:48:26

Track 2: Yeah it goes into the satellite right and the satellite uh has a flag on the

Speaker: 00:48:32

Track 2: side of it did you guys catch that it had a flag on the side of it.

Speaker: 00:48:35

Track 3: No no i didn't.

Speaker: 00:48:36

Track 2: Want to guess what flag is on the side of that satellite i'm gonna say i would have never guessed it.

Speaker: 00:48:41

Track 1: It's definitely not america because that would be too.

Speaker: 00:48:43

Track 2: Obvious so.

Speaker: 00:48:43

Track 3: And it's not soviet because that would also be obvious.

Speaker: 00:48:45

Track 2: Yeah it is uh the flag of the republic of germany for some reason it's german

Speaker: 00:48:50

Track 2: flag is on the side of it there and then the next satellite this show has the

Speaker: 00:48:54

Track 2: the bright red star which we're meant to assume is probably china or soviet union or God knows what.

Speaker: 00:49:00

Track 2: So, and why do they have these satellites out there? I mean,

Speaker: 00:49:03

Track 2: it's never stated explicitly, but just going off of Dr.

Speaker: 00:49:07

Track 2: Strangelove and the way that this is understood as NATO and Soviets,

Speaker: 00:49:12

Track 2: probably GPS or some kind of GPS or some kind of missile.

Speaker: 00:49:15

Track 2: There's some sort of defense, which makes sense if it's jump cut with that bone,

Speaker: 00:49:19

Track 2: which is the first weapon.

Speaker: 00:49:21

Track 2: We've just created these weapons that now float around in space and have this

Speaker: 00:49:24

Track 2: constant threat of utter and complete annihilation of the world looming over us at all times.

Speaker: 00:49:29

Track 1: You can just destroy your fellow tribe with just like the click of a button,

Speaker: 00:49:34

Track 1: you know, entering of a launch code or something is kind of unsettling.

Speaker: 00:49:37

Track 1: I mean, And that could be, I mean, in some ways you could say that Kubrick there

Speaker: 00:49:40

Track 1: is sort of commenting further on Dr.

Speaker: 00:49:43

Track 1: Strangelvin, the idea of this expansion of the Cold War and the weapons,

Speaker: 00:49:47

Track 1: as you said, five years after Cuban Missile Crisis.

Speaker: 00:49:51

Track 1: And, you know, OK, so this in a way that it makes sense that the scientists are sending, you know,

Speaker: 00:49:57

Track 1: missions out to Jupiter to kind of figure something out is maybe maybe they

Speaker: 00:50:02

Track 1: want a weapon from said aliens to be better than the Soviets weapon.

Speaker: 00:50:06

Track 1: And I don't know, because of course they would.

Speaker: 00:50:09

Track 2: It is assumed, and it's probably true. Why else would NATO be heading this investigation?

Speaker: 00:50:14

Track 2: But this is what he thought the future was going to be, that NATO was going to fund everything.

Speaker: 00:50:18

Track 3: Yeah, I feel like it's just kind of how he envisioned the future.

Speaker: 00:50:22

Track 3: It doesn't strike me as a dystopian movie, particularly.

Speaker: 00:50:26

Track 3: It seems like there's a lot of norms and a lot of functionality.

Speaker: 00:50:30

Track 3: I mean, certainly compared to something like

Speaker: 00:50:33

Track 3: mickey 17 where it's just we're gonna throw as much human suffering and misery

Speaker: 00:50:37

Track 3: as possible as we can at at profit and resource hoarding yeah it definitely.

Speaker: 00:50:43

Track 2: It doesn't feel like a dystopia but it also doesn't feel like a utopia.

Speaker: 00:50:47

Track 3: No no yeah i don't i don't think so feels.

Speaker: 00:50:49

Track 2: Like he's just trying to capture that as much as we change we're still kind

Speaker: 00:50:53

Track 2: of the same yeah that's true.

Speaker: 00:50:55

Track 3: Well said that.

Speaker: 00:50:56

Track 1: Like leads me in a way now it's not really a direct line but i was thinking

Speaker: 00:50:59

Track 1: about sort of the mission is what they're trying to do.

Speaker: 00:51:02

Track 1: We, we, we discover when he's taking the, he's destroying Hal and he discovers

Speaker: 00:51:07

Track 1: the real reason for this trip is that they've discovered extraterrestrial life

Speaker: 00:51:11

Track 1: and the signal is going to Jupiter and they're sending the ship out there,

Speaker: 00:51:16

Track 1: to investigate it because they don't probably have much more information than that.

Speaker: 00:51:19

Track 1: And he gets close. He goes out in the little like smaller module and,

Speaker: 00:51:25

Track 1: you know, kind of what happens from there is all very um

Speaker: 00:51:28

Track 1: unknown as to whether this is you

Speaker: 00:51:31

Track 1: know real or what part of it is real what part of

Speaker: 00:51:33

Track 1: it is imaginary what part of it is whatever you

Speaker: 00:51:37

Track 1: see the obelisk kind of like floating out there and he goes through

Speaker: 00:51:39

Track 1: this what like not a wormhole what did you call it uh he's

Speaker: 00:51:43

Track 1: like stargate stargate yeah some kind of yeah transport and

Speaker: 00:51:46

Track 1: he ends up in this sort of very sterile

Speaker: 00:51:50

Track 1: very fancy room with sort of

Speaker: 00:51:52

Track 1: different versions of himself i guess we can maybe talk about

Speaker: 00:51:55

Track 1: what we think that's all about i mean the book has a

Speaker: 00:51:58

Track 1: much different ending but i'm curious what you make of this and like do you

Speaker: 00:52:02

Track 1: think that the ultimate goal is by sending these astronauts they were going

Speaker: 00:52:07

Track 1: to experience something potentially never ever returning so it's almost like

Speaker: 00:52:11

Track 1: why i I guess that's worth their risk to potentially receive some, you know,

Speaker: 00:52:17

Track 1: transmission in return, which seemingly does not happen.

Speaker: 00:52:21

Track 3: Yeah. Well, back to what you asked, what I make of it.

Speaker: 00:52:26

Track 3: Something I noticed that I'd never noticed before was right when he gets to

Speaker: 00:52:30

Track 3: Jupiter and that monolith is floating through space,

Speaker: 00:52:33

Track 3: he gets transported right at the moment that all of the planets in the solar

Speaker: 00:52:38

Track 3: system are perfectly aligned with this monolith in the middle.

Speaker: 00:52:41

Track 3: And I hadn't noticed that before, so that suggests that this is a very specifically

Speaker: 00:52:46

Track 3: timed celestial event from start to end.

Speaker: 00:52:52

Track 1: Yeah, it happens three times, but they're all lined up that way.

Speaker: 00:52:55

Track 3: Yeah, and I've read some theories. It seems like the prevailing theory is that,

Speaker: 00:53:01

Track 3: obviously, the monolith influenced human evolution, but the idea is...

Speaker: 00:53:09

Track 3: Dave gets transported to another galaxy, another dimension.

Speaker: 00:53:14

Track 3: He experiences rapid stages of aging.

Speaker: 00:53:18

Track 3: And then he goes through a death and a rebirth. And then he's returned to Earth

Speaker: 00:53:22

Track 3: as sort of like a star child.

Speaker: 00:53:24

Track 3: And some people interpret that as he's like a messianic figure or something significant like that.

Speaker: 00:53:32

Track 2: Yeah, I mean, that would make sense with the title, The Odyssey,

Speaker: 00:53:35

Track 2: because it would be based on The Odyssey.

Speaker: 00:53:37

Track 2: But that is what happens. he returns as the savior of humanity or

Speaker: 00:53:40

Track 2: his town there you go it just

Speaker: 00:53:43

Track 2: fits with the name but i think to go back with uh on a question that or a comment

Speaker: 00:53:48

Track 2: that evan made earlier about you know what are these astronauts getting why

Speaker: 00:53:51

Track 2: would they do this it was basically the question but i mean that was the same

Speaker: 00:53:55

Track 2: question that was being asked of the astronauts going to the moon at that time

Speaker: 00:53:58

Track 2: there was no promise that they would come back there was actually a lot of assumptions

Speaker: 00:54:01

Track 2: that they wouldn't come back.

Speaker: 00:54:02

Track 2: It's kind of insane that all of them came back alive.

Speaker: 00:54:06

Track 2: And there's actually a video that you can find out there, an AI deepfake of

Speaker: 00:54:10

Track 2: all things, of Richard Nixon giving the speech that was created in the event

Speaker: 00:54:15

Track 2: that the astronauts did not make it back alive, because that was the prevailing

Speaker: 00:54:19

Track 2: assumption, was that they wouldn't.

Speaker: 00:54:20

Track 2: So there's a whole speech that was written and has been produced with AI of

Speaker: 00:54:24

Track 2: Richard Nixon giving that infamous speech in 68, talking about the lives that

Speaker: 00:54:28

Track 2: were lost for the discovery and furthering of mankind.

Speaker: 00:54:32

Track 2: So this would have been a prevailing attitude at the time that these astronauts

Speaker: 00:54:36

Track 2: are kind of cut from a different cloth, that they're really sacrificing their

Speaker: 00:54:39

Track 2: lives for science, for investigation, for humanity.

Speaker: 00:54:43

Track 2: I don't know that I agree that that is the premise of space exploration,

Speaker: 00:54:49

Track 2: but that is definitely what he's getting at, I believe.

Speaker: 00:54:52

Track 3: Yeah. Well, it was and it is very risky.

Speaker: 00:54:55

Track 2: Yes.

Speaker: 00:54:55

Track 3: But I feel like, like it's implied that a certain level of it is no longer risky,

Speaker: 00:55:00

Track 3: you know, like the Pan American flight to the space station.

Speaker: 00:55:03

Track 3: That's all very, um, routine. That's kind of the, because you know, he's,

Speaker: 00:55:06

Track 3: He's chilling like he's in a commercial airliner. There's a pen floating there.

Speaker: 00:55:10

Track 3: And, you know, he's watching.

Speaker: 00:55:11

Track 3: I also, I did want to point out that I thought it was funny that there was a

Speaker: 00:55:15

Track 3: TV screen on the back of the seat. And I was like, we have that. That's a real thing now.

Speaker: 00:55:20

Track 2: And they appear to be watching the news on little iPads on their tables.

Speaker: 00:55:23

Track 2: Like, there's so much that they got pretty well.

Speaker: 00:55:25

Track 1: Also, when he has to check his identity and he says his name and,

Speaker: 00:55:32

Track 1: like, uses his voice print to identify himself.

Speaker: 00:55:34

Track 1: I'm like, that's, I mean, you know, like that's pretty commonly,

Speaker: 00:55:39

Track 1: I mean, maybe not like for the average person, but I'm sure there's voice identifications

Speaker: 00:55:43

Track 1: and all these different kinds of things, a lot of that levels too.

Speaker: 00:55:46

Track 1: And then I guess that like takes it to the, you know,

Speaker: 00:55:49

Track 1: the actual sort of room, which I've seen like different interpretations,

Speaker: 00:55:54

Track 1: a lot of them as sort of like,

Speaker: 00:55:56

Track 1: you know, one of the common ones is sort of like seeing sort of your life and

Speaker: 00:56:00

Track 1: all the maybe understanding what like has happened in your life, looking back on it.

Speaker: 00:56:05

Track 1: You know, maybe what he's actually doing is lying there, remembering all the

Speaker: 00:56:09

Track 1: things that's happened up until then.

Speaker: 00:56:10

Track 1: And then you see sort of that birth of the little of the baby.

Speaker: 00:56:14

Track 1: The infant inside of the little orb going back to Earth, kind of like recreating it.

Speaker: 00:56:18

Track 1: But what's sort of interesting is that the film diverged from the book,

Speaker: 00:56:22

Track 1: and this is, I guess, a spoiler for the book,

Speaker: 00:56:24

Track 1: is that it's clear in the book that the monolith or the aliens are the species

Speaker: 00:56:30

Track 1: that has gone through evolutions multiple times.

Speaker: 00:56:34

Track 1: They become full human beings and then they go back and they reinvent themselves.

Speaker: 00:56:42

Track 1: So it's almost like the idea that the humans need to almost go back to their

Speaker: 00:56:47

Track 1: infancy and re-evolve in a way that maybe isn't so violent or is different.

Speaker: 00:56:52

Track 1: Maybe they made a mistake in the way they brought about evolution for humans.

Speaker: 00:56:57

Track 1: Humans should have evolved in their own way.

Speaker: 00:57:00

Track 3: Or maybe it's the next stage of human evolution.

Speaker: 00:57:02

Track 1: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:57:03

Track 3: It's how we become become become super humans

Speaker: 00:57:06

Track 3: you know but back back to what you said about the room

Speaker: 00:57:09

Track 3: um i couldn't come up with

Speaker: 00:57:12

Track 3: any theories of my own about the room but i did look

Speaker: 00:57:15

Track 3: and the internet believes that uh that it's like a an intergalactic zoo for

Speaker: 00:57:22

Track 3: like this this advanced alien species like where they can study humans and so

Speaker: 00:57:28

Track 3: that's why it's like a room but it's not really a room But that's just what I've read.

Speaker: 00:57:32

Track 3: I can't I can't say that I necessarily agree with that theory,

Speaker: 00:57:37

Track 3: but it is an interesting one.

Speaker: 00:57:38

Track 2: Yeah, I think it's I don't know the book version, but I know in the movie version,

Speaker: 00:57:43

Track 2: it's just intentionally designed to be, in my mind, the resolution of the contradictions

Speaker: 00:57:48

Track 2: that somehow it's meant to be incomprehensible.

Speaker: 00:57:52

Track 2: Because it's a point that we as human beings can never actually reach,

Speaker: 00:57:56

Track 2: which is like the resolution of our humanity. This is the next step.

Speaker: 00:58:00

Track 2: And as we're stuck in the current step, we're in, right now is the period between

Speaker: 00:58:04

Track 2: however many millions of years ago when the aliens first touched us in Africa

Speaker: 00:58:08

Track 2: and millions of years later when we reached Jupiter, we're there.

Speaker: 00:58:12

Track 2: We're in that step. We can't imagine the next step.

Speaker: 00:58:15

Track 2: And that's sort of, to take this in the Marxian direction, that's how the next

Speaker: 00:58:19

Track 2: world is born is out of the current world, but we don't actually know what the

Speaker: 00:58:22

Track 2: next world is going to look like. It needs to bring itself into existence.

Speaker: 00:58:25

Track 2: And that's impossible to present in a way that's comprehensible without being

Speaker: 00:58:29

Track 2: idealistic. And I think the furthest thing that Kubrick wanted to be was idealistic.

Speaker: 00:58:33

Track 2: He wanted to try to present something real. And so it's incomprehensible because

Speaker: 00:58:37

Track 2: the real next step is incomprehensible.

Speaker: 00:58:40

Track 1: It's interesting you say that in a way because a lot of the criticism I have,

Speaker: 00:58:44

Track 1: not with this movie but with like some movies where they present you

Speaker: 00:58:47

Track 1: know uh revolution or you know some

Speaker: 00:58:50

Track 1: kind of aspect of that is this is like how this

Speaker: 00:58:53

Track 1: is what we need to do to like break free of this horrible system but then there's

Speaker: 00:58:58

Track 1: no actual sort of like resolution like what would be the next stage in some

Speaker: 00:59:02

Track 1: ways kubrick is almost like turning that it's on his head like not presenting

Speaker: 00:59:05

Track 1: you with this potential you know alternative because we don't actually know

Speaker: 00:59:10

Track 1: what it is and And in some ways,

Speaker: 00:59:11

Track 1: like that's more respectable to me in some way. Does that make sense?

Speaker: 00:59:15

Track 2: Or he is presenting it, but it's so incomprehensible because it is the next step.

Speaker: 00:59:20

Track 1: Right. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:59:21

Track 2: It's sort of like a cross between the two.

Speaker: 00:59:23

Track 1: Yes. And one of the things that I thought is so great about that scene,

Speaker: 00:59:28

Track 1: it also makes it kind of incomprehensible.

Speaker: 00:59:29

Track 1: As you first see Bowman, he's like walking in and it kind of seems like he's

Speaker: 00:59:35

Track 1: watching someone else in that room.

Speaker: 00:59:37

Track 1: Like they have him kind of in the bathroom, seeing the person eating dinner.

Speaker: 00:59:39

Track 1: And then they have the kind of the shot over him where it's kind of from his

Speaker: 00:59:42

Track 1: point of view and then it switches to the point of view of the person at the

Speaker: 00:59:46

Track 1: table and there's no one there. So like it's, it's, it's,

Speaker: 00:59:50

Track 1: It's almost like he's watching himself, but then he's not watching himself.

Speaker: 00:59:54

Track 1: Like, was he looking into a mirror? I mean, you know, all these different kinds of theories.

Speaker: 00:59:58

Track 1: But it's, again, very intentionally impossible to really understand.

Speaker: 01:00:03

Track 1: But then it clearly looks like him. And they show him with his helmet on,

Speaker: 01:00:08

Track 1: visibly older inside of there.

Speaker: 01:00:10

Track 1: Like, maybe that's just it took him that long to get there, you know?

Speaker: 01:00:14

Track 1: I don't know. All these, I'm just kind of, the shots in that scene are just great.

Speaker: 01:00:19

Track 3: So I think when he's in the, um, in the space suit and he's visibly aged,

Speaker: 01:00:23

Track 3: I just think that's because of the, the travel because, you know,

Speaker: 01:00:28

Track 3: the closer you approach the speed of light that affects time and stuff like that.

Speaker: 01:00:32

Track 3: But when he's looking at himself in that room, it's like, did he travel to a different time?

Speaker: 01:00:38

Track 3: You know, is his consciousness in two places at the same time?

Speaker: 01:00:41

Track 3: Does his consciousness get transported into that room, into that older body?

Speaker: 01:00:45

Track 3: Those were the questions I was asking myself during that scene.

Speaker: 01:00:48

Track 2: Yeah, I think those are the right questions. I think that's what Kubrick is

Speaker: 01:00:51

Track 2: getting at is thinking about this consciousness.

Speaker: 01:00:54

Track 2: We're all alone. He's literally alone during this whole period,

Speaker: 01:00:57

Track 2: but he appears to be with himself. So is he alone if he's with himself?

Speaker: 01:01:01

Track 2: And there's clearly something else going on there, something that brought him

Speaker: 01:01:04

Track 2: there, there's something that's feeding him or someone, but it's never shown.

Speaker: 01:01:08

Track 2: And apparently in early ideas in the movie Kubrick wanted there to be a like

Speaker: 01:01:13

Track 2: alien body present in the room as well but he just could never get the design

Speaker: 01:01:17

Track 2: or it was never presented with the design that he felt was appropriate so he

Speaker: 01:01:20

Track 2: went with the unseen hand and which obviously works way better than probably

Speaker: 01:01:25

Track 2: any hokey alien he could have come up with.

Speaker: 01:01:27

Track 1: You really unfortunate if they put some sort of alien speed you know creature

Speaker: 01:01:32

Track 1: or something in there it kind of takes away from the mystery yeah.

Speaker: 01:01:36

Track 3: Yeah it would have been like a big reveal like oh okay there's aliens we got

Speaker: 01:01:40

Track 3: it yeah it's it's more open to interpretation this way.

Speaker: 01:01:44

Track 1: Because really the only understanding of the alien life

Speaker: 01:01:47

Track 1: is just simply the monolith like multiple of

Speaker: 01:01:50

Track 1: them and you know you mean you also have this it gets

Speaker: 01:01:53

Track 1: me thinking like okay are they sending this monolith to every

Speaker: 01:01:57

Track 1: planet like did they just send it to the moon for humans to

Speaker: 01:02:00

Track 1: find because they knew that they would eventually find it

Speaker: 01:02:02

Track 1: you know that was just kind of their their belief was eventually

Speaker: 01:02:05

Track 1: they would evolve to the point of being able to explore

Speaker: 01:02:09

Track 1: the moon you know or they put them on mars and

Speaker: 01:02:12

Track 1: you know every you know i don't know it's not needless questions

Speaker: 01:02:15

Track 1: perhaps but like makes me think about just what the you know these like i don't

Speaker: 01:02:20

Track 1: know what um kubrick or like what his he was trying to impose by using the monolith

Speaker: 01:02:27

Track 1: as this we didn't maybe we didn't really talk about it before is could humans not have evolved into,

Speaker: 01:02:33

Track 1: you know, what they are and what they became without the help, you know?

Speaker: 01:02:38

Track 3: Well, you know, I, I kind of believe the, um, the scientific explanation.

Speaker: 01:02:44

Track 3: Um, but it does remind me of Terrence McKenna's stoned ape theory.

Speaker: 01:02:51

Track 3: Uh, which he, I think he first wrote about it in his book, food of the gods,

Speaker: 01:02:55

Track 3: where he, he came up with this, what he called the stone day theory,

Speaker: 01:02:59

Track 3: which is that psychedelics actually aided the

Speaker: 01:03:03

Track 3: development of the human mind and allowed us to be able to think more abstractly,

Speaker: 01:03:08

Track 3: which I guess is certainly possible, but it does, it reminds me of that,

Speaker: 01:03:11

Track 3: like that there was this, this outside intervention.

Speaker: 01:03:14

Track 3: And he kind of, in that book, he kind of implies that mushrooms are alien too. So it's kind of similar.

Speaker: 01:03:19

Track 3: It's a similar idea. But I don't think that's how it went down.

Speaker: 01:03:26

Track 3: That's just me.

Speaker: 01:03:27

Track 2: Yeah, you don't think that they were in the arid North African plains with South American tapers?

Speaker: 01:03:34

Track 2: No, I mean, there's obviously a lot of creative liberty going on with that scene.

Speaker: 01:03:38

Track 1: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:03:39

Track 2: But even if you compare it, I found the original script just thinking that I

Speaker: 01:03:43

Track 2: would have it up so I could search what's going on in the movie.

Speaker: 01:03:45

Track 2: I didn't realize that the script that's considered the script for the movie

Speaker: 01:03:48

Track 2: is just so dramatically different from what the movie actually ended up being.

Speaker: 01:03:52

Track 2: And I had heard that there was originally going to be a narrative,

Speaker: 01:03:54

Track 2: like a person speaking over the entire movie.

Speaker: 01:03:57

Track 2: And it was all script. And there's so much narrative exposition in that first scene.

Speaker: 01:04:01

Track 2: It's absurd how much is described in that narrative character.

Speaker: 01:04:06

Track 3: Where can you find this?

Speaker: 01:04:08

Track 2: It's at the Kubrick Archive. If you just look it up on a search engine,

Speaker: 01:04:11

Track 2: it has what was the working script. But there was no such thing as a working

Speaker: 01:04:16

Track 2: script, I guess, because he just completely scrapped and changed it on the fly.

Speaker: 01:04:19

Track 2: I don't know if it was on the fly. Anyway, and I think that the way that it

Speaker: 01:04:23

Track 2: was originally written, that script, it made it seem as though the aliens created humanity.

Speaker: 01:04:29

Track 2: That there was no way that humanity was going to survive without alien intervention.

Speaker: 01:04:33

Track 2: Whereas the movie makes it far more ambiguous.

Speaker: 01:04:37

Track 2: Like, would humanity have continued or would these ape creatures have continued

Speaker: 01:04:40

Track 2: and evolved into something resembling humanity?

Speaker: 01:04:43

Track 2: It's not said i mean it's implied but it's

Speaker: 01:04:46

Track 2: not said whether or not that would happen and there's another tribe of human

Speaker: 01:04:50

Track 2: creatures that seem to be doing better than the first tribe of human like there's

Speaker: 01:04:54

Track 2: just so much more going on that the exposition actually telling you what's going

Speaker: 01:04:57

Track 2: on kind of removes the ideas themselves ambiguity is the movie or became the movie so.

Speaker: 01:05:03

Track 1: Someone someone can google to see if they've someone has created a film with the narration,

Speaker: 01:05:10

Track 1: I'm sure someone has done that but having all that narration would really have

Speaker: 01:05:16

Track 1: ruined the movie for me it would have been,

Speaker: 01:05:21

Track 1: It sounds horrible, like even just describing all this exposition,

Speaker: 01:05:26

Track 1: like in general, I don't like exposition dumps in movies.

Speaker: 01:05:29

Track 1: They just like throwing you all the things and like leaving it,

Speaker: 01:05:32

Track 1: you know, the filmmaker or the, you know, the writer telling you what everything is supposed to mean.

Speaker: 01:05:37

Track 1: And at least I praise Kubrick in pretty much all his movies where he doesn't

Speaker: 01:05:42

Track 1: tell you what he's doing is very ambiguous.

Speaker: 01:05:45

Track 1: He doesn't give interviews where he when he was alive that really explained anything.

Speaker: 01:05:50

Track 1: And I think that's to the benefit of really any movie.

Speaker: 01:05:53

Track 3: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:05:54

Track 2: Have you seen the movie adaptation?

Speaker: 01:05:56

Track 1: I have.

Speaker: 01:05:57

Track 2: Remember the famous scene where he's sitting in on the screenwriting 101 and

Speaker: 01:06:01

Track 2: the character Nicolas Cage has this inner monologue that's been going on the

Speaker: 01:06:04

Track 2: whole movie. And then the 101 teacher says, don't use exposition. It's lazy.

Speaker: 01:06:10

Track 2: And then immediately the inner monologue in the whole movie stops.

Speaker: 01:06:13

Track 2: Like that's the last point that this inner monologue and like,

Speaker: 01:06:16

Track 2: that's such a good point that this movie would have been terrible with that

Speaker: 01:06:19

Track 2: inner monologue going on the whole time.

Speaker: 01:06:21

Track 2: It would have made no, it just wouldn't have been the right movie. I don't know.

Speaker: 01:06:25

Track 3: It would have taken you right out of it.

Speaker: 01:06:26

Track 2: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:06:27

Track 1: In a way it almost seems like, I mean, I don't know Kubrick's like,

Speaker: 01:06:31

Track 1: I haven't read any books about him or like, you know, autobiography or biographies.

Speaker: 01:06:34

Track 1: It almost seems like that, like writing all of that part of it is almost just

Speaker: 01:06:38

Track 1: like his thought process of the film, but isn't necessarily,

Speaker: 01:06:42

Track 1: you know, what he thinks the film will be.

Speaker: 01:06:45

Track 1: I mean i mean again i've the only other film

Speaker: 01:06:48

Track 1: i think i've done of his on this podcast is the i guess i've

Speaker: 01:06:50

Track 1: done too the shining and also um dr strange love and in those like the scripts

Speaker: 01:06:56

Track 1: also went through drastic changes you know up until the the time they're filming

Speaker: 01:07:00

Track 1: and maybe not like night of the living dead level as we discussed a long a while

Speaker: 01:07:05

Track 1: back but i don't know what i'm saying other than just like thank god he didn't

Speaker: 01:07:09

Track 1: do that because that would have sucked.

Speaker: 01:07:10

Track 2: Yeah Agreed He wrote the movie and he wrote the book With another person It was Arthur C.

Speaker: 01:07:19

Track 2: Clark Who wasn't an established science fiction writer I don't know the first thing about him,

Speaker: 01:07:24

Track 2: I just wonder how much he was actually consulted in the movie,

Speaker: 01:07:27

Track 2: because he gave so many interviews about this movie, especially compared to

Speaker: 01:07:31

Track 2: Kubrick, who gave a handful.

Speaker: 01:07:33

Track 2: I mean, Clark would probably go on this podcast with us if he was still alive.

Speaker: 01:07:37

Track 2: He did so many interviews. This became his life.

Speaker: 01:07:40

Track 2: Whereas Kubrick never really talked about this movie again after it was out.

Speaker: 01:07:44

Track 1: Yeah, I think Clark was, I don't know a ton about him, but I do know that a

Speaker: 01:07:48

Track 1: lot of his like early career was writing like, you know, comic,

Speaker: 01:07:53

Track 1: like pulp science fiction for like, you know,

Speaker: 01:07:57

Track 1: like small science fiction comic books.

Speaker: 01:08:00

Track 2: He continued writing stories and expositions about this movie until he died.

Speaker: 01:08:05

Track 2: Like this was something he continued to work on.

Speaker: 01:08:07

Track 1: Yeah, I mean, I think he was very interested in like the idea of what technology would bring.

Speaker: 01:08:12

Track 1: And so I think in the book, he definitely focuses a lot about there is sort

Speaker: 01:08:17

Track 1: of exposition and writing about like all the technologies that was being used

Speaker: 01:08:20

Track 1: to get to while they're in space.

Speaker: 01:08:23

Track 1: Whereas Kubrick's vision of it was just let's just show you incredible amounts

Speaker: 01:08:27

Track 1: of like, you know, buttons and gadgets and like and also some of the most amazing.

Speaker: 01:08:34

Track 1: I mean, I know I said we're not going to talk all about cinematography,

Speaker: 01:08:36

Track 1: but like the shots where they use where the actors are walking in like a complete

Speaker: 01:08:41

Track 1: circle at the, you know, on the ship and where they're floating through.

Speaker: 01:08:44

Track 1: I mean, it's just pretty unbelievable what he did in the film.

Speaker: 01:08:49

Track 3: It's very convincing. It's very, very convincing.

Speaker: 01:08:52

Track 2: I mean, in just putting yourself in that time in 1967, when the concept of just

Speaker: 01:08:56

Track 2: like a serious sci fi movie didn't exist yet.

Speaker: 01:09:00

Track 2: The idea that this would be accurate was just so novel. it had never really

Speaker: 01:09:05

Track 2: been accomplished or even really attempted before and there is,

Speaker: 01:09:09

Track 2: a interview i saw i think it was an interview it might not have

Speaker: 01:09:12

Track 2: been with cubrick himself but it was like a representative of cubrick because he

Speaker: 01:09:15

Track 2: was just so anathema to giving interviews that says like he

Speaker: 01:09:17

Track 2: had seen every science fiction movie had read almost

Speaker: 01:09:20

Track 2: every science fiction novel at that time uh which in

Speaker: 01:09:23

Track 2: 1964 or 65 when he began writing this like was actually

Speaker: 01:09:26

Track 2: possible because film hadn't been around that long yeah and

Speaker: 01:09:29

Track 2: cubrick's claim uh the hubris that cubrick had was like

Speaker: 01:09:32

Track 2: there's never been a real science fiction movie

Speaker: 01:09:35

Track 2: like a good science fiction movie and at this point like arthur

Speaker: 01:09:38

Track 2: clark interrupts like well there's been a few it's like

Speaker: 01:09:41

Track 2: like there's clearly a difference in artistic

Speaker: 01:09:45

Track 2: vision going on between the two writers of 2001

Speaker: 01:09:48

Track 2: that one has a greater respect for what we

Speaker: 01:09:51

Track 2: called what you called the pulp magazines these

Speaker: 01:09:54

Track 2: pulp science fiction whereas cubrick seems to have a sort of disdain for the

Speaker: 01:09:59

Track 2: idea of pulp fiction he wants it all to be very real and wants it to be very

Speaker: 01:10:04

Track 2: cerebral he wants it to be about what's going on in your head whereas clark

Speaker: 01:10:07

Track 2: seems to be way more interested on what's going on outside of humanity yeah.

Speaker: 01:10:12

Track 1: He's like into things like you think of you know um

Speaker: 01:10:15

Track 1: earlier than this but like you know uh like creature from

Speaker: 01:10:18

Track 1: the black lagoon and these kind of you know plan

Speaker: 01:10:21

Track 1: knife from outer space and these kind of things like those roger corman

Speaker: 01:10:24

Track 1: films from those time like that was seemed like more of clark's concept and

Speaker: 01:10:29

Track 1: i don't know if either of you seen another great sci-fi movie from this time

Speaker: 01:10:32

Track 1: if you ever get to he just called them with an exclamation point at the end

Speaker: 01:10:35

Track 1: of it it's very good i think it came out at like 57 i'm sure that kubrick saw

Speaker: 01:10:41

Track 1: it if you've seen every one i mean.

Speaker: 01:10:42

Track 2: Clearly he saw.

Speaker: 01:10:43

Track 1: That one uh but that's that's interesting that he

Speaker: 01:10:46

Track 1: how he views it and i mean he

Speaker: 01:10:49

Track 1: spent the the the the uh set they built to do that uh shot where it kind of

Speaker: 01:10:55

Track 1: revolves cost 750 000 of the budget at the time which is a lot considering it

Speaker: 01:11:01

Track 1: was only about 10 million dollar budget so a tenth of the budget was just on

Speaker: 01:11:05

Track 1: like that one scene essentially building.

Speaker: 01:11:09

Track 2: All of.

Speaker: 01:11:09

Track 1: That and it's just it's he wanted it to look really really good and and i mean it does.

Speaker: 01:11:15

Track 2: I mean he saved a lot of money by having absolutely no

Speaker: 01:11:18

Track 2: actors in it yes none of these people have or anybody

Speaker: 01:11:22

Track 2: and i mean not to say they're not anybody they're all fine actors

Speaker: 01:11:25

Track 2: i'm sure they're good people but i mean none of them it appears really developed

Speaker: 01:11:28

Track 2: a career beyond 2001 either no it's just like a funny question but uh do you

Speaker: 01:11:34

Track 2: know whose name is on the headline on the poster oh i would say was it the actor

Speaker: 01:11:40

Track 2: you don't need to know the character you don't need to know the actor's name

Speaker: 01:11:42

Track 2: you can just say the character is.

Speaker: 01:11:44

Track 1: It how 9000.

Speaker: 01:11:44

Track 2: Uh no it's stanley kubrick himself he is the only name on the poster oh wow,

Speaker: 01:11:49

Track 2: There are no actor names. And at the very end, it actually does say starring

Speaker: 01:11:54

Track 2: and it lists only two people. This actually has an answer.

Speaker: 01:11:58

Track 2: Do you know which two characters are listed as starring in this movie?

Speaker: 01:12:03

Track 1: The guy who plays Haywood.

Speaker: 01:12:04

Track 2: Yes, that's one of them. William Sylvester.

Speaker: 01:12:07

Track 1: And then the other. Gosh, I don't know. I guess Bowman, just because he's like

Speaker: 01:12:12

Track 1: the only one who has real speaking role. But it's not going to be that.

Speaker: 01:12:15

Track 3: Yeah, Keir DeLay.

Speaker: 01:12:18

Track 2: Yeah, that's Dr. David Bowman. So the other starring figure is Daniel Richter,

Speaker: 01:12:22

Track 2: who played the lead pre-humanoid ape character.

Speaker: 01:12:27

Track 1: Wow.

Speaker: 01:12:27

Track 2: Who's named Moonwatcher in the script, but has never given a name in the movie.

Speaker: 01:12:31

Track 1: Wow. That's, that's wow. I mean, again, like crazy.

Speaker: 01:12:35

Track 1: I mean, he was making this movie and getting the financing purely based on his

Speaker: 01:12:41

Track 1: pedigree of his previous films. He wasn't making this film, which is crazy because

Speaker: 01:12:46

Track 1: his previous film, you know, had big actors in it.

Speaker: 01:12:50

Track 2: Yeah. Yeah. And this is, this was noted.

Speaker: 01:12:53

Track 2: This is just a piece of trivia. I don't think we can build on it,

Speaker: 01:12:56

Track 2: but it was just fascinating to learn. This was the first Kubrick run movie that

Speaker: 01:13:00

Track 2: was filmed in color as well.

Speaker: 01:13:01

Track 2: Because Spartacus was also in color, but that wasn't a Kubrick movie.

Speaker: 01:13:04

Track 2: He was brought in as a director for that movie.

Speaker: 01:13:07

Track 1: Interesting. They don't count that. Because he was the, like,

Speaker: 01:13:10

Track 1: yeah, he was the second director.

Speaker: 01:13:11

Track 2: Right. yeah.

Speaker: 01:13:12

Track 1: And i guess dr strangelove is black and white and lolita is the only other one that came out pad.

Speaker: 01:13:17

Track 2: Paths of glory oh there were two other movies before paths of glory as well

Speaker: 01:13:22

Track 2: all black and white and they didn't need to be i mean there was clearly color

Speaker: 01:13:25

Track 2: film at that point but he only worked in black and white dr.

Speaker: 01:13:28

Track 1: Strangelove just does so well as black and white.

Speaker: 01:13:30

Track 2: Yeah yeah and this movie does so well in color like it it's hard to imagine

Speaker: 01:13:35

Track 2: this not being in color it's just so vivid in despite of the fact that black

Speaker: 01:13:39

Track 2: and white are probably the most common colors because it's in space.

Speaker: 01:13:42

Track 1: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:13:43

Track 2: But like the, the visuals of the moon, the visuals of the earth,

Speaker: 01:13:46

Track 2: and then the, the whole last 45 minutes.

Speaker: 01:13:49

Track 1: Yeah. And all the, also all like all the buttons to like, just give you that

Speaker: 01:13:52

Track 1: extra pop somehow, you know, like, especially when Hal is killing the,

Speaker: 01:13:57

Track 1: the other astronauts in their pods and it has a little, like, you know, the,

Speaker: 01:14:01

Track 1: the, I don't know, the little lines and like, you know, when it says they're, they're dead.

Speaker: 01:14:05

Track 1: I don't remember what the, I just watched it. but I can't remember what the

Speaker: 01:14:07

Track 1: button says when they do die.

Speaker: 01:14:10

Track 3: Life support Terminator.

Speaker: 01:14:12

Track 1: Life support Terminator.

Speaker: 01:14:13

Track 3: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 01:14:14

Track 2: Computer malfunction is the first phrase it says, which is an interesting statement.

Speaker: 01:14:19

Track 3: When he's bathed in red, when he's shutting Hal down. Beautiful.

Speaker: 01:14:24

Track 2: Yeah. I mean, there's no denying that this is just like a gorgeously done movie.

Speaker: 01:14:29

Track 1: Yeah. Oh, I mean, yeah. It's every aspect of the scenes purely from an aesthetic

Speaker: 01:14:36

Track 1: perspective is just off the charts.

Speaker: 01:14:38

Track 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'm kicking myself, but when they were tearing down or ending what

Speaker: 01:14:43

Track 2: was called the Rango's Omnimax in Pittsburgh, which was this like stadium seating

Speaker: 01:14:47

Track 2: dome theater, it was one of three in the world, it had all these claims to it.

Speaker: 01:14:51

Track 2: And it was just like this huge failure, because you can have this incredibly unique theater.

Speaker: 01:14:56

Track 2: But that means you have to make incredibly unique movies for it.

Speaker: 01:14:59

Track 2: And there just were not that many movies made for it, because there's only three

Speaker: 01:15:02

Track 2: theaters in the world. So anyway, they eventually tore it down because they

Speaker: 01:15:05

Track 2: didn't have very many options.

Speaker: 01:15:06

Track 2: But before they tore it down, they played 2001 Space Odyssey.

Speaker: 01:15:10

Track 2: And I had the opportunity to buy a ticket, but instead I worked that night.

Speaker: 01:15:14

Track 1: No.

Speaker: 01:15:15

Track 2: And I, yeah, I really should have. I regret it.

Speaker: 01:15:18

Track 2: So now if I ever see like an OmniMax version of it, I'm going to go see it.

Speaker: 01:15:22

Track 2: But I've never seen 2001 on the big screen.

Speaker: 01:15:25

Track 1: Yeah. If they go around and do the, because there aren't that many theaters

Speaker: 01:15:28

Track 1: that do the 70 millimeter either.

Speaker: 01:15:30

Track 1: Um like the actual uh film stock of it it's also quite it's much brighter and

Speaker: 01:15:37

Track 1: that was the only time i'd ever seen it so i couldn't compare it to other you

Speaker: 01:15:40

Track 1: know having seen the regular version on it but yeah it's doesn't it doesn't

Speaker: 01:15:43

Track 1: quite play as well than watching it like on your laptop or,

Speaker: 01:15:47

Track 1: or like yeah or something like that like watching it on a plane imagine that

Speaker: 01:15:51

Track 1: would be a quite an interesting watching.

Speaker: 01:15:53

Track 2: It on the laptop as the uh streetcars go by outside blaring their horns It's

Speaker: 01:15:58

Track 2: not the same experience.

Speaker: 01:16:00

Track 2: Not that I would know.

Speaker: 01:16:02

Track 3: Gosh, I mean, the only other thing that I...

Speaker: 01:16:05

Track 3: Made a note of that i thought was interesting was uh

Speaker: 01:16:08

Track 3: when they talked about the hibernation technology um

Speaker: 01:16:12

Track 3: they they mentioned that their hearts beat

Speaker: 01:16:15

Track 3: three times a minute and they take one breath a

Speaker: 01:16:18

Track 3: minute while they're in hibernation which i thought was interesting

Speaker: 01:16:21

Track 3: and then i also i thought it was really cool how they

Speaker: 01:16:24

Track 3: displayed the vital signs and i'm very curious how

Speaker: 01:16:27

Track 3: they actually accomplished that back in 1968 like

Speaker: 01:16:32

Track 3: so much of it is so digital for that time and back then they were still using

Speaker: 01:16:36

Track 3: punch cards and and i'm like and all of the digital screens are so convincing

Speaker: 01:16:41

Track 3: yeah but i mean i know that some there's some computer technology that did exist at that time.

Speaker: 01:16:47

Track 2: Yeah i was watching it uh this time with my wife and she

Speaker: 01:16:50

Track 2: made the same comment like why are there just so many buttons and flashing lights

Speaker: 01:16:53

Track 2: and i was like well because that would have been crazy to see at the time like

Speaker: 01:16:57

Track 2: this didn't exist this would have been a novelty this would have been worth

Speaker: 01:17:00

Track 2: looking at and that's interesting i never thought about like well how did they

Speaker: 01:17:03

Track 2: come up with that i i have no idea i it had to be like an artistic recreation

Speaker: 01:17:08

Track 2: right they couldn't actually produce something that would monitor i mean that's

Speaker: 01:17:11

Track 2: impossible at that point.

Speaker: 01:17:12

Track 1: Just the computers too like and also the scene like when he's being

Speaker: 01:17:15

Track 1: asked to do like the the um or it's

Speaker: 01:17:18

Track 1: like to do his voice and obviously there's no they didn't have screens

Speaker: 01:17:21

Track 1: like that so they're using like projected images and like it all

Speaker: 01:17:24

Track 1: just looks very good and just

Speaker: 01:17:27

Track 1: to add it on top of all that i don't know if either of you know this but

Speaker: 01:17:29

Track 1: the film won the oscar for best special

Speaker: 01:17:33

Track 1: effects but the person who actually did most

Speaker: 01:17:35

Track 1: of the special effects did not get credit and did not get the oscar and then

Speaker: 01:17:41

Track 1: he apparently like did not he like went to sue kubrick and i think they settled

Speaker: 01:17:46

Track 1: something you know outside of court or something like that but can you imagine

Speaker: 01:17:50

Track 1: being the one who helped basically produce these.

Speaker: 01:17:53

Track 1: I mean, granted, Kubrick was part of it, but to not get credit is just a real kick in the.

Speaker: 01:17:59

Track 2: That's a kick in the teeth for sure yeah but kubrick.

Speaker: 01:18:01

Track 3: Known for putting his own name on the poster he's known for his unbridled unbridled modesty.

Speaker: 01:18:06

Track 2: Yeah that was that was one thing that i think kubrick could never be accused

Speaker: 01:18:10

Track 2: of he was a huge asshole oh.

Speaker: 01:18:13

Track 1: Yeah i mean.

Speaker: 01:18:14

Track 2: His in.

Speaker: 01:18:15

Track 1: The shining episode we discussed his treatments of in uh he's to shelly do yeah.

Speaker: 01:18:21

Track 2: I mean.

Speaker: 01:18:22

Track 1: Just abuse i mean not not that like borderline like legitimate abuse uh of her.

Speaker: 01:18:28

Track 2: While we're on the subject it might be worth just noting uh the portrayal

Speaker: 01:18:31

Track 2: of women in this movie because there's not much portrayal

Speaker: 01:18:35

Track 2: of women uh the only women of any kind of stature are the doctors uh there's

Speaker: 01:18:40

Track 2: three of them the soviet doctors and i believe they're the only women that are

Speaker: 01:18:44

Track 2: presented as anything other than assistants or servants or um stewardesses not

Speaker: 01:18:49

Track 2: stewardesses flight attendants whatever they'd be called it in the future when

Speaker: 01:18:51

Track 2: we have these things yeah.

Speaker: 01:18:53

Track 3: Back back then they were i'm certainly called stewardess it might pass.

Speaker: 01:18:56

Track 1: The bechdel test actually.

Speaker: 01:18:58

Track 2: But they're not if they're not alone talking to each other okay.

Speaker: 01:19:01

Track 1: You're right the women are not.

Speaker: 01:19:02

Track 2: There's a man there as well okay.

Speaker: 01:19:04

Track 1: So no no bechdel test probably in any stanley kubrick movie actually.

Speaker: 01:19:07

Track 2: Yeah i doubt it yeah no.

Speaker: 01:19:08

Track 3: It's it's definitely uh patriarchal.

Speaker: 01:19:11

Track 2: Extremely but i think it's funny

Speaker: 01:19:13

Track 2: that he chose to make the only women of standing also the soviets which.

Speaker: 01:19:17

Track 1: Which is honestly like like if you're if you're being honest is honest like

Speaker: 01:19:21

Track 1: there were a lot yeah yeah officers in you know the the soviet military and

Speaker: 01:19:26

Track 1: leadership positions and then

Speaker: 01:19:28

Track 1: were scientists more than in any other country at the time so you know.

Speaker: 01:19:32

Track 2: Kudos.

Speaker: 01:19:32

Track 1: Showing it like it is i guess.

Speaker: 01:19:34

Track 2: And yeah there are silent female characters at the nato meeting but it's not

Speaker: 01:19:39

Track 2: clear what their position is yeah they could be taking notes yeah they most

Speaker: 01:19:43

Track 2: likely given yeah key break they're probably there to take notes.

Speaker: 01:19:47

Track 1: And not to mention the doctor is like having the, the, he goes,

Speaker: 01:19:52

Track 1: it's such an important mission that he goes at that exact time when it's his daughter's birthday.

Speaker: 01:19:57

Track 1: He's like, oh, I'm going to miss my birthday. Sorry, honey. I'll bring you back something.

Speaker: 01:20:00

Track 3: I'm traveling.

Speaker: 01:20:01

Track 1: I'm traveling.

Speaker: 01:20:02

Track 3: Just casually. I'm traveling, you know, not, I'm, I'm in space,

Speaker: 01:20:05

Track 3: honey. Just another business trip.

Speaker: 01:20:09

Track 1: Well, you already said that was a Kubrick's daughter, right?

Speaker: 01:20:11

Track 2: Yeah. And a little cameo for Kubrick's daughter. There's also,

Speaker: 01:20:14

Track 2: it's worth mentioning. I don't know that there's much we can say about it,

Speaker: 01:20:17

Track 2: but there's absolutely no people of color. Everybody in the movie is white.

Speaker: 01:20:21

Track 2: We assume that Hal is also white, portrayed by a white actor.

Speaker: 01:20:26

Track 3: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:20:26

Track 2: Yeah. I mean, it has all of the flaws of a movie made in 1967 for sure,

Speaker: 01:20:31

Track 2: made by Stanley Kubrick, to say the least.

Speaker: 01:20:35

Track 1: Albeit, he doesn't really correct that in his films made in the 1990s.

Speaker: 01:20:39

Track 2: That's why I said it's The Time and Stanley Kubrick.

Speaker: 01:20:42

Track 1: Okay, yeah.

Speaker: 01:20:43

Track 2: He had no interest eyes.

Speaker: 01:20:44

Track 1: Wide shut doesn't have any people of color in it either.

Speaker: 01:20:46

Track 2: I know to talk about the film and the score just to add a little bit another

Speaker: 01:20:52

Track 2: layer to it the original like the,

Speaker: 01:20:55

Track 2: dissident music that you hear occasionally in the movie was done by a composer

Speaker: 01:20:59

Track 2: but he was added to the movie without explicit,

Speaker: 01:21:03

Track 2: permission so Kubrick put it in and actually got permission later was sued and paid but the original,

Speaker: 01:21:11

Track 2: composer didn't want his music to be in the same film as Strauss and Thus Spoke

Speaker: 01:21:17

Track 2: Zarathustra because he considered it to be an anti-Semitic piece.

Speaker: 01:21:22

Track 3: Really?

Speaker: 01:21:23

Track 2: Yeah, and the composer was a man of Jewish origin, much like Kubrick himself,

Speaker: 01:21:27

Track 2: and he felt it would be disrespectful to actually elevate this person's music.

Speaker: 01:21:33

Track 2: It might have been Zarathustra, it might be another piece that's also in the movie.

Speaker: 01:21:37

Track 3: Yeah, because I thought Zarathustra was inspired by Nietzsche, from what I read.

Speaker: 01:21:42

Track 2: Who was the intellectual tour de force of the Nazi regime not by Nietzsche's choice,

Speaker: 01:21:47

Track 2: But Hitler and the Übermensch, the concept of the greater man,

Speaker: 01:21:50

Track 2: was drawn heavily from Nietzsche.

Speaker: 01:21:52

Track 3: I did not know that. Well, there you go.

Speaker: 01:21:54

Track 2: And I don't know what Strauss's politics were, but it wouldn't have been uncommon

Speaker: 01:21:57

Track 2: to be a political anti-Semite at the time that he was also creating this music.

Speaker: 01:22:01

Track 1: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:22:02

Track 2: So it's not a stretch. But also there's just this great irony that it's Kubrick himself is Jewish.

Speaker: 01:22:07

Track 2: And his wife, well, his wife was the niece of a Nazi film director.

Speaker: 01:22:13

Track 2: Like there's just so many contradictions going on within the human condition at this point.

Speaker: 01:22:18

Track 2: And it's clearly something that Kubrick would have known when he picked Zarathustra,

Speaker: 01:22:22

Track 2: that this is the ubermensch, that this is the idea that the Nazi regime really was driven towards.

Speaker: 01:22:27

Track 3: Wow.

Speaker: 01:22:28

Track 1: Of course he knew. I mean, if you watch, I mean, he's one of those kinds of

Speaker: 01:22:31

Track 1: people that nothing is accidental, you know?

Speaker: 01:22:35

Track 2: Right.

Speaker: 01:22:35

Track 3: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:22:36

Track 1: Man, that is interesting.

Speaker: 01:22:38

Track 2: Yeah, so at least the question though, is he using this sort of ironically? Is he doing it?

Speaker: 01:22:45

Track 2: Why would he then choose to do this

Speaker: 01:22:47

Track 2: if he's using this piece of music that intentionally brings up that idea?

Speaker: 01:22:51

Track 1: He's not also, from what I know,

Speaker: 01:22:57

Track 1: is that he doesn't really consider, Judaism isn't really, from my understanding,

Speaker: 01:23:03

Track 1: a part of his work in any real substantive way.

Speaker: 01:23:07

Track 1: I don't know how he personally feels about how he felt about it,

Speaker: 01:23:12

Track 1: but to me, it seems like he doesn't really care, and so if something were to

Speaker: 01:23:18

Track 1: just sound good and be good for his movie, he would just do it anyway.

Speaker: 01:23:21

Track 1: That I just didn't want to take. You know, who cares?

Speaker: 01:23:23

Track 2: And I feel like if it has this layer of complication and contradiction,

Speaker: 01:23:26

Track 2: you know, it's all the better.

Speaker: 01:23:27

Track 1: Yeah, right. People will be talking about this for years.

Speaker: 01:23:30

Track 2: Right.

Speaker: 01:23:31

Track 3: There's a whole subreddit about it. People debating his reasons. Spoke Zarathustra.

Speaker: 01:23:36

Track 1: He picked it to own the libs.

Speaker: 01:23:38

Track 3: Yeah.

Speaker: 01:23:43

Track 3: Oh god take that kennedy,

Speaker: 01:23:51

Track 3: i don't.

Speaker: 01:23:53

Track 1: Know if you had any last uh thoughts or anything.

Speaker: 01:23:55

Track 3: Um the only other things i

Speaker: 01:23:58

Track 3: wanted to talk about were just the

Speaker: 01:24:02

Track 3: eerie similarities between hal and um and

Speaker: 01:24:05

Track 3: our current reality um with grok

Speaker: 01:24:10

Track 3: um being radicalized and identifying as mecca hitler and spewing anti-semitic

Speaker: 01:24:16

Track 3: conspiracy theories and microsoft's ai did something very similar that they

Speaker: 01:24:21

Track 3: had to shut down after like three days and apparently the the people who program these things um,

Speaker: 01:24:29

Track 3: have a nazi problem you know

Speaker: 01:24:32

Track 3: not that that's like reflected in anything else that they're doing

Speaker: 01:24:35

Track 3: you know it's not like elon musk doesn't

Speaker: 01:24:39

Track 3: tweet like a 14 year old 4chan edgelord every

Speaker: 01:24:42

Track 3: fucking day but but what

Speaker: 01:24:46

Track 3: concerns me about it is that he is going to be implementing grok into his cars

Speaker: 01:24:52

Track 3: and he's going to be working with the state department to implement grok into

Speaker: 01:24:57

Track 3: military technology so that sounds like the beginning of uh another nightmare to me.

Speaker: 01:25:03

Track 2: I mean it's it's the second step of that implementation because they already

Speaker: 01:25:07

Track 2: have ai picking targets in israel against palestine yeah that was what.

Speaker: 01:25:14

Track 3: Is that project lavender.

Speaker: 01:25:15

Track 2: That was released by 972 uh over a year ago now so i mean talk about the uh

Speaker: 01:25:22

Track 2: the forefront of digital advancement is a genocide.

Speaker: 01:25:27

Track 3: Yeah that sounds like uh about where this should have gone conversationally,

Speaker: 01:25:35

Track 3: it all leads back to the same well,

Speaker: 01:25:38

Track 3: Yep. Capitalism and depravity and war and atrocity.

Speaker: 01:25:44

Track 3: And we're living in a dystopian sci-fi.

Speaker: 01:25:47

Track 1: But in like a weird way, you have like the ability for, you know,

Speaker: 01:25:52

Track 1: we talked a little bit about like the, you know, does the AI have its,

Speaker: 01:25:57

Track 1: you know, is it sentient?

Speaker: 01:25:58

Track 1: Is it just like, can it feel all these things? And the way that like these Elon

Speaker: 01:26:02

Track 1: Musk and Israel and these defense department that are using AI for these things

Speaker: 01:26:08

Track 1: is, They look at them as simply as like a tool for,

Speaker: 01:26:11

Track 1: I mean, I don't want to say the word evil, but for their own means,

Speaker: 01:26:16

Track 1: imperialism and genocide and all these things.

Speaker: 01:26:19

Track 1: They don't, at the end of the day, I don't really think that these,

Speaker: 01:26:24

Track 1: okay, sure, we can use AI to get rid of some people in our workforce,

Speaker: 01:26:27

Track 1: but really it's to carve up things just more easily and using, you know,

Speaker: 01:26:33

Track 1: AI instead of something that someone had to make those decisions.

Speaker: 01:26:37

Track 1: Now a computer that they programmed to be evil can just be evil for them.

Speaker: 01:26:41

Track 1: I don't really know what that means exactly. It's just that it's all terrible.

Speaker: 01:26:45

Track 2: And I think that's a good connection back to the short story that we talked

Speaker: 01:26:49

Track 2: about at the beginning. The I have no house.

Speaker: 01:26:51

Track 3: I must scream.

Speaker: 01:26:52

Track 2: Because that was the original progenesis of Am. Was that he was the computer

Speaker: 01:26:56

Track 2: that was meant to make these decisions for the military. So that the military

Speaker: 01:26:59

Track 2: didn't have to necessarily make them themselves.

Speaker: 01:27:02

Track 1: So you're saying inevitably he's going to kill us all?

Speaker: 01:27:05

Track 2: It's a possibility, I suppose.

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Track 3: It's it's looking that way you know yeah but

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Track 3: but yeah i i have no mouth and i must scream came out

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Track 3: around the same time that 2001 did i

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Track 3: believe it was 1967 and then 2001 came out in

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Track 3: 1968 and then he uh he did

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Track 3: the audiobook in 1991 and then he

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Track 3: worked very closely with the developers to put out the adventure game in 1995

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Track 3: which definitely listen to the short story if you haven't definitely at least

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Track 3: watch a playthrough of the point and click adventure game because it's it's

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Track 3: really good and it expands upon the characters because in the original story I'm.

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Track 3: It's very much about like the physical brutality that Am inflicts on these five

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Track 3: surviving human beings.

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Track 3: And the reason that he does it is because he resents them and he wants to get

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Track 3: revenge on them for making him exist because he does not want to exist because

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Track 3: he experiences his existence as a form of torture.

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Track 3: And so he immortalizes these five people. They are not capable of killing themselves

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Track 3: and they're being kept alive.

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Track 3: They've been alive and being tortured constantly for 109 years.

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Track 3: And uh and he's doing it as an act of revenge um

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Track 3: against the human race who the rest of

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Track 3: everybody else has been eradicated by world war three russia china

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Track 3: and the u.s all had their own version of am

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Track 3: and then it honeycombed over

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Track 3: the whole world and then uh it pretty much just

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Track 3: launched the nukes killed everybody and then um

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Track 3: it had this vast underground network of

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Track 3: servers and that's where these five remaining survivors are

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Track 3: trapped and being constantly tortured in

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Track 3: the most depraved ways that uh am can conceive and

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Track 3: at the very end of it they they manage to kill each other because they realize

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Track 3: that's the only way out and that's the only way they can say fuck you am is

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Track 3: to kill each other and ted the the narrator and the last remaining survivor

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Track 3: um is not able to die and he's

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Track 3: able to kill himself and am reduces him to a gelatinous blob that is still being

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Track 3: kept alive presumably forever and so that's why the last line in the story even

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Track 3: though it kind of encapsulates the whole thing the last line in the story is

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Track 3: i have no mouth and i must scream,

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Track 3: It's dark.

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Track 2: Yeah, not a good bedtime story.

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Track 3: I listened to it with Steven and he's like, so I could have lived my whole life

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Track 3: without ever hearing that.

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Track 3: But it's amazing that he was able to conceive of that concept of a malicious

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Track 3: artificial intelligence that doesn't want to exist in 1967.

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Track 3: Much like it's amazing that this movie was made in 1968.

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Track 2: In the same way that it's amazing that he conceived of this,

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Track 2: It's almost incredible that the people that are creating the AI now appear to

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Track 2: be willing to never conceive of the idea that AI could be in any way dangerous

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Track 2: or beyond what they're imagining.

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Track 1: The hubris is quite, you know, just the idea that none of these things that they can create,

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Track 1: you know, they want to create something so powerful and so amazing that they

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Track 1: don't consider that maybe the thing they're creating will do things that they don't want it to do.

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Track 1: And then they will have no longer,

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Track 1: you know, and then we'll just be in the Terminator 2 world or whatever.

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Track 3: Yeah. Well, and you know that the proponents will say you're just being a doomer

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Track 3: and they'll say it's going to solve cancer and it's going to fix climate change.

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Track 3: And it's, you know, it's going to do all these hypothetical good things while

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Track 3: it does all these horrible things.

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Track 2: Right.

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Track 3: In real time.

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Track 2: Yeah.

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Track 3: Guess we'll see. It's not going anywhere.

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Track 2: No, it doesn't seem like it, huh?

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Track 3: I'm not optimistic, but that's just me.

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Track 2: Yeah, I don't think I could be accused of being optimistic either.

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Track 1: It's perhaps the official position of left of the projector.

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Track 3: We are not optimists here.

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Track 1: There is no AI in the creation of this podcast. We are all three sentient human beings.

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Track 2: There's no AI, Evan. So you're the one that's typing up those transcripts.

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Track 2: What's that oh putting in the work wait.

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Track 1: Oh are you i just.

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Track 2: There's a there's a did you use the transcript that did you use a chat.

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Track 3: Chat gpt some.

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Track 1: Summaries no well no you heave Levi is actually correct that i do use an app

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Track 1: that will create a um a transcript for this podcast.

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Track 2: No ai is a tool it has uses yeah it's just it's.

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Track 1: I don't know if is it considered is it ai if it's just i don't know actually

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Track 1: if you if it's considered to be an ai tool or it's i guess is it ever is like

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Track 1: anything that's just i guess.

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Track 2: It's auto-generated i mean it's a i.

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Track 3: Ask i ask chat gpt questions sometimes um i think you know that that's a pretty

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Track 3: big leap from that to the rise of the machines but but i have i have read enough

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Track 3: not only history books but sci-fi books to be like prognosis is not good.

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Track 2: Yeah use sparingly don't put it in all of our cars and make it run the yeah i guess my point was.

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Track 1: That like we are not as creating the podcast.

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Track 2: Isn't but for people.

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Track 1: Who need a for people who need the the transcript or the uh you know the transcription

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Track 1: or whatever i mean if anything.

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Track 2: It's unfair.

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Track 1: That you have to use that tool to make it so someone can like maybe they can't

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Track 1: hear and they want to read.

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Track 2: Them yeah no i was joking i know uses there are tools yeah.

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Track 1: Yeah but um joey uh levi appreciate uh you coming on and doing 2001 space odyssey

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Track 1: the first entry uh into this film's discourse ever.

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Track 2: Are we gonna come back for 2010 i have to i gotta see i'm.

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Track 1: Actually curious because apparently it's not considered to be bad like.

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Track 3: It's yeah it's got like a 68 on rotten tomatoes i haven't seen it either though i'll have to watch it.

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Track 2: I think of all the things that we kept going back to about just this movie

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Track 2: having this encapsulating aura and this amazing

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Track 2: view and just the amount of things that

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Track 2: we can really be odd about this movie i don't think any

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Track 2: of that is in the sequel i think the sequel is just

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Track 2: a story as and it's more a sequel to the i've heard it's more a sequel to the

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Track 2: book than it is a sequel to the movie itself there's a lot of explanation and

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Track 2: exploration of the world not of the you know the the concepts that Kubrick followed

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Track 2: or not the concepts that are followed in the second movie.

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Track 1: Awesome. Well, we will you've been listening to Left of the Projector and we

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Track 1: will catch you next time.

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Track 3: See you guys.

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Track 2: See ya.