Episode 250
EPISODE 250! The Hunt for Red October
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Track 2: I will say, this movie was way better than I remember it.
Speaker:Track 1: I didn't really remember much. But why did I think Tom Cruise was in this?
Speaker:Track 1: Like, the...
Speaker:Track 3: See, I got confused when I was, like, Hunt for Red October. I was like,
Speaker:Track 3: oh, I'm pretty sure that's that one with Ben Affleck, right?
Speaker:Track 1: It's hard to tell him.
Speaker:Track 3: Like... Nope, different Jack Ryan.
Speaker:Track 1: Where's Tom Cruise? like fucking like Baldwin shows up and I'm like okay but when does Cruz show up.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't.
Speaker:Track 3: Think Tom Cruz has ever been Jack Ryan right yeah Tom Cruz has never been Jack Reacher.
Speaker:Track 1: Ryan what do you want white guy that does.
Speaker:Track 3: Fucking American.
Speaker:Track 1: Stuff I don't know.
Speaker:Track 2: They wanted kevin costner but he turned it down to do dances with wolves which
Speaker:Track 2: i thought was interesting and they picked they picked um they picked what's
Speaker:Track 2: his name uh they picked alec baldwin because they decided they wanted someone
Speaker:Track 2: who was up and coming instead of a big star probably because they would they
Speaker:Track 2: wanted sean connery to be like i thought i thought.
Speaker:Track 1: Was good um it was but sean connery it's a russian it's fucking weird.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah alec baldwin wasn't bad but like i remember this vhs growing up in my house
Speaker:Track 3: and sean connery's face was way bigger on the cover of the vhs.
Speaker:Track 2: Than alec.
Speaker:Track 3: Baldwin's for sure.
Speaker:Track 2: Uh and the cover doesn't even love it's.
Speaker:Track 1: Just sean connery's giant fucking head and then the con tower of the submarine that's it.
Speaker:Track 2: You know that the uh that they they carefully crafted his hairpiece to use for
Speaker:Track 2: the movie because they didn't want him to be bald it.
Speaker:Track 1: Was it was very impressive i will say that.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah it's a nice hairpiece yeah,
Speaker:Track 2: This week on Left of the Projector, we are celebrating both America and Left of the Projector.
Speaker:Track 2: This will be the 250th birthday of the United States and the 250th episode of this podcast.
Speaker:Track 2: We'll be discussing an all-American film, The Hunt for Red October,
Speaker:Track 2: featuring a whole host of people leading with Sean Connery, Alec Baldwin,
Speaker:Track 2: Scott Glenn, James Earl Jones, Sam Neill, and about 15 other men.
Speaker:Track 2: i don't believe a single female is in this
Speaker:Track 2: film it is of course from
Speaker:Track 2: 1990 a submarine spy thriller
Speaker:Track 2: i don't know that's has its own full genre listed on
Speaker:Track 2: wikipedia but apparently it does it was a smash in the box office making 200
Speaker:Track 2: million dollars on a 30 million dollar budget with me to celebrate america if
Speaker:Track 2: you want to or you could just decline i will bill and ward I will not be celebrating America.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, I'm actually pretty disappointed about the America part.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, that's the sad part.
Speaker:Track 3: Also, the submarine spy thriller, that's three different hyperlinks.
Speaker:Track 1: That's not a full thing. It's submarine.
Speaker:Track 1: Submarine is submarine film, though. So apparently that is its own subgenre.
Speaker:Track 2: Submarine films. Wow. Wow, you're right, it is.
Speaker:Track 1: So really, this is submarine film, spy film, and thriller. This is three films
Speaker:Track 1: together. This is a mashup film.
Speaker:Track 1: It's a mashup.
Speaker:Track 3: It's also like a Cold War film.
Speaker:Track 1: True.
Speaker:Track 3: Like, at the very end of, like, the Cold War. Like, the Berlin Wall had already
Speaker:Track 3: fell when this movie came out.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, but this is clearly, I mean, this is clearly a Cold War film.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, it starts, like, you know, like, Gorbachev's taking power.
Speaker:Track 2: They were actually worried about it because the film, the book was written earlier,
Speaker:Track 2: and they thought, oh, well, what are we going to do?
Speaker:Track 2: Because it's six years later, the Soviet has fallen. and we'll just set it in
Speaker:Track 2: the time they wrote the book and just pretend no one, you know, no one cares.
Speaker:Track 2: No one notices. And they tried, and they, like, were really hardcore about making
Speaker:Track 2: it a thriller instead of it being a political movie.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, they were worried that people were not going to want to see it.
Speaker:Track 1: What a weird, like, what a weird fear.
Speaker:Track 1: It's like, as if they've never made a movie set in a different time.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, how will we handle, will the audiences be able to figure out that this
Speaker:Track 1: movie is not exactly taking place at this moment what what a weird fucking.
Speaker:Track 2: When people saw tombstone they're like oh my god we had the wild west whoa holy shit response.
Speaker:Track 1: Swear to god these people these fucking studio people are fucking truly next level weird stupid.
Speaker:Track 2: So what did you guys think of this you uh i think we were talking in that open
Speaker:Track 2: uh that you had seen it a bunch war i i had very little recollection of it I
Speaker:Track 2: remember just being confused the last time I saw it.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, I saw it a bunch growing up and like as a kid and teenager.
Speaker:Track 3: And then it's been a while since I rewatched it. That's why like at first when
Speaker:Track 3: I was like, oh, yeah, this is the one with Ben Affleck. This is going to be sick.
Speaker:Track 3: I think I was just talking about it with these guys. And then,
Speaker:Track 3: yeah, it wasn't that one.
Speaker:Track 3: I mean, it's classic Tom Clancy, Red Scare propaganda, CIA doing CIA stuff, but it's,
Speaker:Track 3: not and it's not like it's not entertaining it's entertaining.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah well this is the one thing that i felt
Speaker:Track 2: like was so well we can maybe you can maybe talk both say like what you think
Speaker:Track 2: about it specifically is like very heavy i mean there's a lot of propaganda
Speaker:Track 2: america good so union bad but the thing that i noticed when i was watching it
Speaker:Track 2: is the opening of the film you get a lot of insight into,
Speaker:Track 2: I guess you do see Alec Baldwin's wife in one scene, but you get the sense of, you get...
Speaker:Track 1: Yes. Dr. Beverly Crusher shows up for, like, exactly one scene.
Speaker:Track 1: She shows up to say goodbye. That's literally her scene.
Speaker:Track 1: She walks out a door, she's like, bye! That's it.
Speaker:Track 2: But what I was going to say is they completely humanize all of the Americans,
Speaker:Track 2: especially Alec Baldwin, whereas in the
Speaker:Track 2: soviet side you're kind of introduced to sean connery in a
Speaker:Track 2: you know sort of little monologue and
Speaker:Track 2: then he's on the submarine the red october and making them seem very sterile
Speaker:Track 2: which is kind of the way that america likes to depict you know soviet period
Speaker:Track 2: whereas america's like oh we're family i'm a family man i have a kid i'm gonna
Speaker:Track 2: do this thing for my country it's Sort of, I don't know.
Speaker:Track 3: No, no, definitely the stark portrayal between like, oh, I got a home life,
Speaker:Track 3: Jack Ryan versus like, yeah, Lithuanian porn, no family to leave behind,
Speaker:Track 3: fucking Captain Ramius.
Speaker:Track 3: Like, and it's, and he opens up with like, it's cold and hard.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: like that's the only option that the soviet union could be.
Speaker:Track 1: I do think they tried to that out
Speaker:Track 1: of everybody connery's character they
Speaker:Track 1: attempted to humanize him but like
Speaker:Track 1: in the way that like he was a victim of soviet like soviet policies like he's
Speaker:Track 1: a victim like this is what this is what this is what the soviet union it's not
Speaker:Track 1: that the soviets themselves are cold and hard people it's that They have been
Speaker:Track 1: made that way by the Soviet government.
Speaker:Track 1: They're victims of it. Because they go back to his wife all the time and how she died.
Speaker:Track 1: They constantly bring that back up. And it's like, oh, we feel so bad for you.
Speaker:Track 1: We're so sorry. You had a wife and she died.
Speaker:Track 1: And it's vaguely threatening.
Speaker:Track 1: And again, as if something happened to her that was the government's fault almost.
Speaker:Track 1: But we have no reason to believe that. but the way they talk.
Speaker:Track 3: About it is it's almost like it's that yeah it's like
Speaker:Track 3: how was the state involved with his wife's death and why is that the crucial
Speaker:Track 3: thing did we yeah why do we miss the whole part where like it's a moral quandary
Speaker:Track 3: for him well and that's like the real reason why he's choosing to do this i.
Speaker:Track 2: Think the most the most bizarre thing about the introduction to knowing that
Speaker:Track 2: his wife had died is that so like the setup for this movie is we learn about
Speaker:Track 2: there's this ship the red October submarine this,
Speaker:Track 2: It's a brand new kind of submarine that has the ability to essentially be stealth.
Speaker:Track 2: It has like a silent motor.
Speaker:Track 2: And Jack Ryan flies out to tell the CIA to tell everyone that we need to do
Speaker:Track 2: something about this because we can't track it.
Speaker:Track 3: But then- He does tell us that James Earl Jones.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. He's doing a briefing and he's like, what day is it? This is the day of
Speaker:Track 2: the anniversary of this captain I met one time's dead wife.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like, fuck, dude. You did not remember that off the top of your head.
Speaker:Track 1: It's so bizarre.
Speaker:Track 3: It's so Tom Clancy. It's so Tom Clancy.
Speaker:Track 1: The shit that his character just leaps to is so bizarre. It's...
Speaker:Track 1: it's rain man level shit like it is fucking wild tom cruise should be in this
Speaker:Track 1: because he should be playing opposite fuck what's his name god damn it.
Speaker:Track 2: Sean allie baldwin.
Speaker:Track 1: No brain man fucking brain oh oh i see got it what's what's his what's the actor that played that man,
Speaker:Track 1: why can i not remember this dustin hoffman yes thank you he should be playing
Speaker:Track 1: opposite dustin hoffman because dustin hoffman because that's the shit he's
Speaker:Track 1: pulling in this it's like total just like absurdity like why that's.
Speaker:Track 2: That's the cia propaganda though right that like cia have these elite people.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah it's all genius over the top stuff but it's like like like you said bill
Speaker:Track 3: like it's so ridiculous like my favorite was like he's sitting there contemplating
Speaker:Track 3: like how do you get how do you get sailors off.
Speaker:Track 1: Of a nuclear.
Speaker:Track 3: Submarine and it's like the real answer is uh you put them on a fucking submarine.
Speaker:Track 1: They want to get the fuck off what the fuck are you talking about.
Speaker:Track 3: Are you fucking crazy nobody wants to be in that.
Speaker:Track 1: Motherfucker you know it's like have Have you seen the inside of this thing?
Speaker:Track 1: No one wants to be in that. That's not going to be like, we should shove 20
Speaker:Track 1: people in a closet, but how will we get them out?
Speaker:Track 3: Okay, so Typhoon class is massive. They had a pool and a sauna on board.
Speaker:Track 1: Get out.
Speaker:Track 3: No, like legit. Had a pool and a sauna on board.
Speaker:Track 3: Some of you usually try and take care of its sailors.
Speaker:Track 1: First of all, saunas are just rooms, okay? I'm not that impressed by that.
Speaker:Track 3: Okay.
Speaker:Track 1: A sauna is basically a bathroom with steam. Okay.
Speaker:Track 1: First of all, but still, like Warren said, nobody wants to be like,
Speaker:Track 1: you're, it's tight. It's like you're underwater.
Speaker:Track 1: Like you can't see the sky. You can't see sun. And you know,
Speaker:Track 1: it's like fucking, or even the moon. It's, you see nothing.
Speaker:Track 1: It's just piped in air, recycled air.
Speaker:Track 2: And they built, they built like crazy submarine sets that were in the water
Speaker:Track 2: that would actually move. And apparently some of the actors got seasick during
Speaker:Track 2: the filming of it, which is pretty crazy.
Speaker:Track 3: And they even got seasick on the hydraulic sets.
Speaker:Track 2: Yes. Yes. The hydraulic sets. But they built a crazy amount of sets.
Speaker:Track 2: I mean, I will say the insides of all of the, like all of the,
Speaker:Track 2: in the submarine cinematography and the way it's filmed is pretty incredible.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah no it was yeah it was really well done like i
Speaker:Track 3: was looking at some stuff where like apparently like casts and like cameramen
Speaker:Track 3: were like constantly bumping bumping into each other because the set was like
Speaker:Track 3: that cramped um but like they did such a good job with the shots and then also
Speaker:Track 3: keeping it where it's like each submarine has its like own distinctive feel
Speaker:Track 3: where you don't really get lost between all the jumps and cuts between submarines yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: It felt it felt cramped like it felt.
Speaker:Track 3: Yes You.
Speaker:Track 1: Definitely got like,
Speaker:Track 1: The sensation, like, oh, that they're, like, in, like, a sub.
Speaker:Track 2: And I completely forgot to mention that this is directed by John McTiernan,
Speaker:Track 2: who people probably know from things like Predator and Last Action Hero.
Speaker:Track 2: What else did he do? One of the Die Hard movies.
Speaker:Track 1: He did Die Hard. Like, the original Die Hard.
Speaker:Track 3: I was about to say.
Speaker:Track 2: He did Die Hard. Did he do the original?
Speaker:Track 1: Okay, sorry. Yeah. You know, the one people care about.
Speaker:Track 2: Right. He did one of the later ones.
Speaker:Track 3: The most.
Speaker:Track 2: But don't forget he did the uh the remake of rollerball which is a absolute piece of shit i.
Speaker:Track 3: Forgot about that yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: It's a really bad movie and.
Speaker:Track 1: He also went to prison by the way he also went to prison.
Speaker:Track 2: He did go to prison. That is correct.
Speaker:Track 2: If you actually listen to the episode we did on, I think on Predator and Predator
Speaker:Track 2: 2, we talked about that in that episode.
Speaker:Track 2: So, which I think was actually episode 150, which I guess you have to do tyranny
Speaker:Track 2: movies on every multiples of 50, something like that.
Speaker:Track 2: Or no, maybe it was actually episode 100. I don't know.
Speaker:Track 2: well whoever is listening whoever is the um the
Speaker:Track 2: scribe and the person who keeps the archive for you
Speaker:Track 2: can reach out at left to the projector at gmail.com and let
Speaker:Track 2: us know more comment and be mad well so
Speaker:Track 2: the the thing that's so the like the big
Speaker:Track 2: background in this too that is another one of the leaps
Speaker:Track 2: that jack ryan makes in this is he's
Speaker:Track 2: trying to figure out what's the like what the
Speaker:Track 2: what the submarine is capable of and now they're trying to figure out
Speaker:Track 2: how to get onto the to the
Speaker:Track 2: submarine because he's now somehow in his you
Speaker:Track 2: know cia genius brain has discovered that he is doing this on his wife's anniversary
Speaker:Track 2: of her death and he wants to defect to america i i do not the people who are
Speaker:Track 2: at in the briefing when he tells them that and they're all sort of what the
Speaker:Track 2: fuck are you talking about they're rightfully should be like what the fuck are
Speaker:Track 2: you talking about yeah right There.
Speaker:Track 1: Is no reason to come to that conclusion at all.
Speaker:Track 1: None. We have, there is no plot reason why anyone would assume that.
Speaker:Track 2: Except the propaganda side of everyone wants to come to America because America
Speaker:Track 2: is the land of blue jeans and the Soviet Union doesn't have any.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. The conversation between Marenus and was it Sam Neill's character?
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: About like what they want once they get to the States is the,
Speaker:Track 1: uh, Rameis, not Mayors, uh, Rameis, his character and, uh, Rameis and Borden Samuel's character.
Speaker:Track 1: That is, I feel like that is one of the most hand fisted conversations I've
Speaker:Track 1: ever seen, like in a movie.
Speaker:Track 1: and it just felt so just forced and flat and just absurd it just it was so ridiculous.
Speaker:Track 2: Doesn't he say he wants to go fishing is that the thing.
Speaker:Track 3: He like wants to go fishing wants to live in montana live in arizona in the
Speaker:Track 3: summer maybe get a recreational vehicle you know he has these real aspirational
Speaker:Track 3: goals once he gets to america budweiser i i contest with you bill Okay.
Speaker:Track 1: I think there's a more ham-fisted one?
Speaker:Track 3: No, I don't know. Maybe I've read Black Shirts and Reds too many times,
Speaker:Track 3: but that scene instantly struck me of the chapter Communism in Wonderland,
Speaker:Track 3: where it's like a lot of people in the Soviet Union didn't know what they really had.
Speaker:Track 3: You know, they didn't, they took for granted so many things and they had,
Speaker:Track 3: they had these material wants because they took for granted so many of the social
Speaker:Track 3: benefits that they're reaping because of the Soviet union.
Speaker:Track 3: Like I can absolutely agree that it's ham fisted. It's a fucking Tom Clancy
Speaker:Track 3: red scare propaganda film.
Speaker:Track 3: But like for me, like, I got, I fucking read, read a lot of parenti.
Speaker:Track 3: I can't help it. So I saw that and I was like.
Speaker:Track 1: Oh, I was looking at it from the perspective of.
Speaker:Track 1: an American writing that and like them, like kind of like not from the perspective
Speaker:Track 1: of like the characters, but like the perspective of like them,
Speaker:Track 1: like putting it in there because like, I don't think the Tom Clancy felt like that.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, you know what I mean? Like I was thinking about it, like from his perspective
Speaker:Track 1: of like how like forced it felt.
Speaker:Track 1: But at the same time, like I had, I did have that same response.
Speaker:Track 1: I'm like, because when he goes like, um, do you think you can travel from state to state?
Speaker:Track 1: and he's like yeah of course no papers and
Speaker:Track 1: no papers i'm like yeah he goes like all i could think was like yes true freedom
Speaker:Track 1: the ability to cross state lines without like any you know while also being
Speaker:Track 1: able to die of cancer like you know and and go into medical debt or you know,
Speaker:Track 1: lose your home and be homeless because you couldn't afford to pay rent you know
Speaker:Track 1: like That was my immediate thought.
Speaker:Track 2: He also says that he wants to raise rabbits and have a woman who will cook for him.
Speaker:Track 1: Yes. It's so...
Speaker:Track 1: It's so, like, it came off as so, like, demeaning, like these,
Speaker:Track 1: like, almost like these savages.
Speaker:Track 1: I just, I want a woman to cook for me, and I'm just gonna, that's all she can do is cook for me.
Speaker:Track 2: What, because in Soviet Russia, the women don't cook for you because they're too, I don't know.
Speaker:Track 1: I don't know. They have college degrees, and they're fucking scientists.
Speaker:Track 1: They're fucking doctors.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. The other side of that same sort of propaganda that struck me was,
Speaker:Track 2: I think when they're talking about, well, one, sorry, going back,
Speaker:Track 2: the beginning when they introduce you to Ramius,
Speaker:Track 2: Marco Ramius, the commanding officer of Sean Connery, he talks like they have
Speaker:Track 2: him, they're speaking in Russian.
Speaker:Track 2: We can also talk about his accent. They're speaking in Russian.
Speaker:Track 2: And then they use the word Armageddon, which is the same in both languages.
Speaker:Track 2: And they're like, yeah, we're just going to now switch over to English because
Speaker:Track 2: it's easier for everyone.
Speaker:Track 2: And of course, he has to use the Oppenheimer quote, the destroyer of worlds.
Speaker:Track 2: He's sort of going on the fact that only the Soviet Union would build a ship
Speaker:Track 2: or a weapon that's first strike capable.
Speaker:Track 2: Have you guys heard of America?
Speaker:Track 3: I mean if anyone's gonna first.
Speaker:Track 2: Strike it's definitely gonna be america.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah so first off when they like switch languages and they like zoomed in on
Speaker:Track 3: the mouth that was a scene i completely forgot about and i watched it and i'll
Speaker:Track 3: as soon as it happened i was like eh 13th warrior did it better also.
Speaker:Track 1: John mcteernan film.
Speaker:Track 3: Really yep.
Speaker:Track 2: Nice wait which movie 13th.
Speaker:Track 3: War 13th war.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh you're right he did do that movie all the shit and it's also based on a book
Speaker:Track 2: but in that case michael creighton but talking.
Speaker:Track 3: About the u.s and first strike weapons like no absolutely i mean like they even
Speaker:Track 3: fucking mentioned the cuban missile crisis in this movie but it's like no mention
Speaker:Track 3: of uh first strike weapon u.s first strike weapons in turkey against the soviet.
Speaker:Track 1: Union no mention of the fact that the united states is the only country to drop
Speaker:Track 1: two nuclear weapons on another country but we just constantly gloss over that
Speaker:Track 1: fact we can't have we're actively building offensive.
Speaker:Track 3: Missile bases against china right.
Speaker:Track 1: Now like.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah the they also
Speaker:Track 2: make that very distinct sort of the conversation where uh
Speaker:Track 2: i forget which one of them is saying how they had to when i
Speaker:Track 2: was younger i had to build a bomb shelter in my
Speaker:Track 2: basement because we were worried about the kid
Speaker:Track 2: yeah you know and it's just pile i think yeah they're just piling on you know
Speaker:Track 2: that the again that the soviets are savages they would first you know do it
Speaker:Track 2: to us first and they're worried that this stealth ship could just sneak up on
Speaker:Track 2: them and just you know go behind many lines the.
Speaker:Track 3: Reality of the cold war arms race was that it was not an arms race at all.
Speaker:Track 3: It was, like Parenti says in the yellow speech, a chase. And you can cut that audio in. Bah.
Speaker:Track 4: There is, ladies and gentlemen, those missiles are not the result of an arms
Speaker:Track 4: race. I maintain that there is no arms race, and there never has been.
Speaker:Track 4: A race, as you know, the model of a race is the two proponents moving,
Speaker:Track 4: each more furiously ahead of the other, trying to make as much,
Speaker:Track 4: put as much space to get to of some gold.
Speaker:Track 4: That model doesn't explain arms escalation.
Speaker:Track 4: What we have had, rather, has been an arms chase.
Speaker:Track 1: On a much less political point regarding the, you know, speaking in Russian
Speaker:Track 1: or like, um, now this film requires a separate subtitle file.
Speaker:Track 1: Um, it is my opinion that if you are making a film in America for an American
Speaker:Track 1: audience, and there are portions of that film, large portions of that film in another language,
Speaker:Track 1: those subtitles should be like part of the fucking like part of the actual movie
Speaker:Track 1: like the whole thing and to not do that is just lazy you're just lazy you're
Speaker:Track 1: lazy put it on the goddamn fucking film okay.
Speaker:Track 3: I'm trying to read my movie.
Speaker:Track 1: Okay.
Speaker:Track 2: There's a scene when they first go on the ship and there's a lot of sort of
Speaker:Track 2: you know side talk in russian and even with the extra subtitle they don't actually
Speaker:Track 2: yeah they don't even do that part.
Speaker:Track 1: They're lazy lazy filmmaking give me my fucking dialogue right there don't make
Speaker:Track 1: me don't make me work for it why do i have to turn subtitles on fucking put it there.
Speaker:Track 2: You know that during that scene they were just saying like random russian words
Speaker:Track 2: they weren't actually speaking in anything they're just probably just they have
Speaker:Track 2: like a dictionary open they're like dog cat the russian equivalent.
Speaker:Track 1: Of extras going rutabaga rutabaga rutabaga.
Speaker:Track 3: Exactly but god after the switch to like english and like the intermittent inconsistent
Speaker:Track 3: wavering russian accents is so fucking hilarious and never stops being funny.
Speaker:Track 2: I especially thought i was gonna be really annoyed by it but i kind of just
Speaker:Track 2: went with it and just sort of accepted the fact that it doesn't make sense connery's scottish.
Speaker:Track 1: Russian accent Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: I love Sam. Sam Neill is great in this too.
Speaker:Track 1: Absolutely.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. We didn't even, we didn't even get to, I was saying how many,
Speaker:Track 2: like how deep this cast goes.
Speaker:Track 2: We also have Stellan Skarsgård, who's also in this.
Speaker:Track 2: We have Fred Thompson, who plays,
Speaker:Track 2: I think one of the, like the commanders during the earlier meetings.
Speaker:Track 2: Who else is in this? We said Tim Curry, Joss Ackland. I mean,
Speaker:Track 2: Jesus Christ. It's just. Tim Curry.
Speaker:Track 1: Is, Tim Curry feels like the odd the odd ball like how did he.
Speaker:Track 3: Feel such an odd.
Speaker:Track 1: Pick how did Tim Curry get near.
Speaker:Track 3: He's supposed to be the.
Speaker:Track 1: Doctor.
Speaker:Track 2: He looks kind of Russian if you're just an idiot I don't know.
Speaker:Track 3: But like he's supposed to be like the morally rigid doctor and it's like have
Speaker:Track 3: you seen anything Tim Curry's been in morally rigid describe him.
Speaker:Track 1: That's exactly when i think morally rigid i think tim curry.
Speaker:Track 2: They saw rocky horror picture show and were like yeah that's the guy we want yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: They could have sweat they could have swapped tim curry and stellan scars guard.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh yeah they could have done that yeah yeah arrogant.
Speaker:Track 3: Fool you killed us all and is tim curry that.
Speaker:Track 1: Would have been.
Speaker:Track 3: Amazing exactly.
Speaker:Track 2: It is like i do find the some
Speaker:Track 2: of the scenes in it really like the scene early on when you're like they're
Speaker:Track 2: they're going sean connery's going into the little safe to get their their secret
Speaker:Track 2: orders with their keys and then they read it and then he just chokes out the
Speaker:Track 2: other the like the politic officer was that his like title He's a political officer.
Speaker:Track 3: He doesn't choke him out. He like breaks his neck.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh, right. Right. That's what I mean. Sorry. I mean, he like, yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: But yeah, he's a political officer.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh, that was Peter Firth. I forgot. Yes. So he kills him and then he pretends that he slipped on T.
Speaker:Track 2: I feel like they know that that's a lie, but they just sort of like,
Speaker:Track 2: well, what are we going to do?
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: I mean, yeah, like higher ranking military officer, what are you going to do?
Speaker:Track 3: He's kind of in charge. And also the political officer was like the first and
Speaker:Track 3: kind of only line of defense that like everybody else had against a situation like this.
Speaker:Track 2: And I guess you only have to convince all the big officers on the ship left were also defecting.
Speaker:Track 2: So if they said it was a accident, like, what are they going to,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, everyone else on the ship just believes whatever they all are just, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: we believe Sean, they believe Sean Connery is the good guy until they're off
Speaker:Track 2: the ship and on the American boat and they still think they're fighting with each, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: like they'll go Soviet to the end.
Speaker:Track 3: Well, yeah, that was even commented on in the film where he's like,
Speaker:Track 3: he's been in, Ramius has been in long enough. He can hand select a crew that
Speaker:Track 3: will like follow him to do whatever.
Speaker:Track 3: So like he picked those guys that are like, oh yeah, I know these guys fucking,
Speaker:Track 3: they don't care. They're not for the fatherland.
Speaker:Track 2: I really wanted when Stellan Skarsgård came on and they're talking about their,
Speaker:Track 2: they're in that sort of dinner where they're all kind of, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: all the people who are defecting.
Speaker:Track 2: I really wanted to say that he was risking everything.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Be like, this is an Andor prequel, guys.
Speaker:Track 3: I had to make one Andor comment. If he didn't blow himself up,
Speaker:Track 3: you could easily be like, dude, he's based in this just like he is in Andor.
Speaker:Track 3: He's trying to stop these fucking defectors who are trying to hand over top
Speaker:Track 3: secret Soviet technology.
Speaker:Track 3: But then he fucking fucks it up.
Speaker:Track 1: He risked it all. He did risk it all.
Speaker:Track 3: His actions and intentions are still incredibly based.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. The one actor I did not mention, which maybe we don't want to,
Speaker:Track 2: he's not a good person, is Jeffrey Jones.
Speaker:Track 2: You know, fuck him as a human.
Speaker:Track 1: I don't remember who that is.
Speaker:Track 3: I don't.
Speaker:Track 2: You know who he is? He's Skip Taylor. He's like the...
Speaker:Track 1: Oh, that guy.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. He's not in it for very much. So it's not like he's a, you know, he just won a.
Speaker:Track 2: pretend he's not in it.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah oh he's not even why is ghostbusters not like the first thing on his his wikipedia page i.
Speaker:Track 2: Always when i think of him i always think of beetlejuice.
Speaker:Track 1: I always think of ghostbusters or.
Speaker:Track 2: Ferris bueller's day off.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah when i forgot he
Speaker:Track 1: was in this and when he showed up i was like oh oh
Speaker:Track 1: that guy fuck that guy i i
Speaker:Track 1: eat this this i don't
Speaker:Track 1: i i didn't you know like this movie just felt like it very much just like a
Speaker:Track 1: like loosely strung together series of events to extol the virtues of the united
Speaker:Track 1: states and to insult the soviet union that's really all it felt like to me i'm like you.
Speaker:Track 2: Got it what's what's even to like compound that is on the other ship i think
Speaker:Track 2: it's the uh the dallas the like the other american ship or the submarine not
Speaker:Track 2: ship submarine that they're.
Speaker:Track 1: That sort.
Speaker:Track 2: Of was following them they have that officer i think is jonesy who's the sonar
Speaker:Track 2: technician who's also like a genius that can hear anything you know not.
Speaker:Track 3: An officer he's extremely low-ranking english.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh he's a petty officer sorry apologies Now.
Speaker:Track 3: They refer to him as seaman.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh, really? In the Wikipedia, it says petty officer.
Speaker:Track 3: They call him seaman.
Speaker:Track 1: On Wikipedia, I see Jeffrey Jones. Oh, no, I'm sorry. That's Jeffrey Jones. I'm mixing up Joneses.
Speaker:Track 3: Okay so this is one thing courtney vance's character yeah
Speaker:Track 3: so i can get my auto my militaristic
Speaker:Track 3: and weapons autism out um procedurally this
Speaker:Track 3: movie is fucking fantastic when it comes to like military jargon
Speaker:Track 3: and procedures um the
Speaker:Track 3: terms that they use um and how
Speaker:Track 3: they do it um but the interactions are
Speaker:Track 3: a bit strange because like jonesy is like lower enlisted
Speaker:Track 3: but he's like super chill with like senior enlisted
Speaker:Track 3: and senior officers like the captain of the submarine which
Speaker:Track 3: is depending upon command possible but not the normal it'd be like a it'd be
Speaker:Track 3: more like a janitor like hanging out with the ceo being like yeah hey i got
Speaker:Track 3: this figured out by the way like that's kind of where you got to get it yeah
Speaker:Track 3: and he just like pulls out his thing.
Speaker:Track 2: And it starts drawing on the map like He owns the place, too.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: There was one...
Speaker:Track 3: Especially, it's like, sonar tech. Why are you drawing lines,
Speaker:Track 3: dude? You figured out the plotting and all that, too? No.
Speaker:Track 1: There was one part that really stuck out to me in the beginning when they're
Speaker:Track 1: like, engage the Caterpillar Drive. We're going stealth.
Speaker:Track 1: And then the entire crew starts singing. They let them sing.
Speaker:Track 1: I'm like, that would defeat the purpose. You can hear that.
Speaker:Track 1: they could hear that 100% like when a submarine he says he can't yeah like what,
Speaker:Track 1: Listen, I don't know a lot, but one thing I do actually know is about submarines,
Speaker:Track 1: because this crosses with my interest of deep sea exploration and the ocean and fish shit.
Speaker:Track 1: And like most of like,
Speaker:Track 1: like the cold war and like
Speaker:Track 1: acoustic research during the cold war was so heavily like accelerated the research
Speaker:Track 1: of like deep sea exploration so much and like acoustics and like aquatic acoustics so much.
Speaker:Track 1: And like, I've read entire books about like just that, just that,
Speaker:Track 1: like, and it's like, yeah, they would have the entire fucking crew singing.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. They would have 100% pick that up. No problem.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. Like there's, there's layers of insulation designed to like help mask,
Speaker:Track 3: like engineering noises and
Speaker:Track 3: stuff like that on submarines. but like the entire crew singing in unison.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah that's.
Speaker:Track 3: Still really loud and especially once you cut all engine noise out completely
Speaker:Track 3: and that's the loudest thing.
Speaker:Track 1: Then it just stands out then that's it stands out like a sore thumb that's how.
Speaker:Track 2: Jonesy goes if it weren't for that i don't think they would have been able to find them right yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah and it's like why would he have done that's such a stupid it's just a stupid
Speaker:Track 1: thing to do no that's not that's not really why that's not why oh no it wasn't sorry it.
Speaker:Track 2: Wasn't you're right you're right yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: It should have been why they found him they they found
Speaker:Track 1: them that should have been there should have been
Speaker:Track 1: none of this conversation about like you know fucking uh undersea magma like
Speaker:Track 1: you know noises or whatever it should be the seismic activity yeah there's i
Speaker:Track 1: can hear fucking 200 dudes singing the soviet anthem like end of conversation like.
Speaker:Track 2: Well, the other thing that I thought was funny too, is they distinctly mentioned
Speaker:Track 2: that they have this $40 million computer that does, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: I guess that does their tracking.
Speaker:Track 2: And he, like the captain, I think asked him, the, the seaman,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, you're, you know, more than this $40 million computer.
Speaker:Track 2: And he basically says, yes, I do. He's a genius.
Speaker:Track 1: That's why he gets to talk to the captain.
Speaker:Track 3: And that's why the military tries to recruit autistic people.
Speaker:Track 3: Who else is going to fucking figure that out?
Speaker:Track 3: Also, there's Navy involvement in making this film, which is probably why it's
Speaker:Track 3: so procedurally accurate.
Speaker:Track 2: Tom Clancy is well known for doing immense amounts of research about all of
Speaker:Track 2: that stuff when he's writing his books. But I'm sure that when they wrote the script...
Speaker:Track 3: So the book for this one, he ended up getting investigated because he had,
Speaker:Track 3: like, such an accurate description of, like,
Speaker:Track 3: the, uh, what CIC for, uh, on the submarine, which is, like,
Speaker:Track 3: that command and control room that they're in.
Speaker:Track 3: Um, he had such an accurate description of it, like, he ended up getting investigated.
Speaker:Track 3: He had just, like, read two books and played a video game called Harpoon.
Speaker:Track 1: Holy shit.
Speaker:Track 3: And they did a lot of thinking and just like logically like,
Speaker:Track 3: well, if I was in a fucking room like that, how would I lay it out?
Speaker:Track 3: And if you get in a certain mindset, you can figure out basically how the US
Speaker:Track 3: military does by basically everything.
Speaker:Track 3: Tom Clancy figured out, even though he came from insurance.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, they like to act like they've figured out some magic thing, but it's rational.
Speaker:Track 1: It's logical. That's all it is. It's procedure.
Speaker:Track 1: It's not like you didn't invent anything new.
Speaker:Track 2: One thing i also forgot to mention too is that for people listen to our red
Speaker:Track 2: dawn episode which was directed by john millius he apparently was brought on
Speaker:Track 2: to rewrite a bunch of the scenes with the russians and he wanted to rewrite
Speaker:Track 2: the whole script and they basically basically told him no just the scenes with thank.
Speaker:Track 3: God thank fucking god.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh he.
Speaker:Track 1: Would have shoved a bunch of 18 year olds this is this is such a better movie
Speaker:Track 1: he would have shoved a bunch of 16 year olds in that submarine.
Speaker:Track 2: Jesus christ and.
Speaker:Track 1: Screaming wolverines everyone would have known where the american sub was there
Speaker:Track 1: was screaming wolverine all the time.
Speaker:Track 2: But apparently like the original screenplay that they wrote they said was basically
Speaker:Track 2: terrible and they had to completely rewrite the whole thing and uh i don't know
Speaker:Track 2: i mean like you said ward i I mean, I don't know the details of, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: procedural stuff, but it, to me, felt realistic.
Speaker:Track 3: I put it up there with, like,
Speaker:Track 3: Greyhound and, like, generation kill in terms of, like, accuracy for,
Speaker:Track 3: like, military procedure.
Speaker:Track 3: Especially, like, terms, shit like that. Yeah. Jargon.
Speaker:Track 1: Greyhound was an incredibly boring movie, though.
Speaker:Track 1: i've never seen that don't ward how did you feel about greyhouse.
Speaker:Track 3: Uh it's it's really
Speaker:Track 3: marketed for people like me who like get off on the whole like military accuracy
Speaker:Track 3: in media it's that's all it's for that is all it's for and it does it extremely
Speaker:Track 3: well but if you're not into that,
Speaker:Track 3: it's fucking boring dog this.
Speaker:Track 2: Is the opposite of that though this is the opposite.
Speaker:Track 3: There's like a few scenes where you're like whoa oh okay but then you're like
Speaker:Track 3: okay that was a what the fuck are we back to yeah what are we doing sorry.
Speaker:Track 1: I didn't mean.
Speaker:Track 3: To get off track on great No, no, no, no, no. But a wonderful question.
Speaker:Track 2: The tension that they build and the, you know, the back and forth,
Speaker:Track 2: you sort of have the, especially when they drop Ryan onto the submarine on the
Speaker:Track 2: helicopter that's, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: on fumes of fuel and they're just, he just dives into the ocean and they pull
Speaker:Track 2: him out. All that shit's great.
Speaker:Track 3: That shit was done great too. Cause like they counted for the static electricity
Speaker:Track 3: that happens whenever you do for the helicopters. like so well done.
Speaker:Track 1: But like i kept like at the
Speaker:Track 1: same time like i kept getting like taken out of it by
Speaker:Track 1: like the just wildly implausible
Speaker:Track 1: leaps of logic that that
Speaker:Track 1: man would take and then people like yeah yeah we're gonna go with that like
Speaker:Track 1: no no like why would the captain of why would the captain of that boat ever
Speaker:Track 1: listened to anything he had to say that we have no reason.
Speaker:Track 1: There is no reason ever given like, even though he's like, I,
Speaker:Track 1: where will he turn? He turns that way.
Speaker:Track 1: and why is he lied.
Speaker:Track 2: About that he made that up.
Speaker:Track 1: You're right i know that i i am
Speaker:Track 1: aware of that why would the captain give it any credit why would
Speaker:Track 1: it matter anyway like yeah it
Speaker:Track 1: just it constantly took me out
Speaker:Track 1: of things that they would think that
Speaker:Track 1: they would give anything this man said any credence over anybody else like why
Speaker:Track 1: they literally have they have orders that came from like who was that guy the
Speaker:Track 1: the on the u.s side yeah oh.
Speaker:Track 2: You're not talking about the james general jones character do you.
Speaker:Track 1: No not james jones the guy that was talking to the russian representative the
Speaker:Track 1: Soviet representative.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh, yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Presidential security advisor.
Speaker:Track 1: They have orders directly from
Speaker:Track 1: the national security advisor to fucking blow that, that, that sub up.
Speaker:Track 1: And then this guy who nobody knows from a hole in the wall is like,
Speaker:Track 1: actually, he's going to defect. And I know this because which way did he turn?
Speaker:Track 1: And they're like, uh, well, he's got us. I guess we won't blow them up. Like, in, it,
Speaker:Track 1: In what way? In what? Like, it just constantly took me out of it.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, well, can I, can I, I'm going to play like, I don't disagree with you,
Speaker:Track 2: but one of the things that also happens in this,
Speaker:Track 2: which is just strange to the ads, like a layer to it is after the red October
Speaker:Track 2: is out and seemingly the Russians find out what's he's doing.
Speaker:Track 2: Cause he wrote that letter to them, telling him what he was going to do,
Speaker:Track 2: which is really fucking stupid. But they deploy, what, 58 different submarines?
Speaker:Track 2: I think it's maybe more than that.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, it's like almost the entire fleet.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: So that alone told America, I mean, obviously both sides seem to know more than they were letting on.
Speaker:Track 2: Like that's the whole, that's the politic of it. But I got the sense that by
Speaker:Track 2: doing all of that, it made everyone think, well, something must be happening here that we don't know.
Speaker:Track 2: Why would the Russians release all of their fleet for one ship?
Speaker:Track 2: Like, that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. And what they were told was, he's going to launch nukes at our country.
Speaker:Track 1: That's what the commanding officer of Dallas was under the impression was supposed to happen.
Speaker:Track 1: And instead, Alec Baldwin shows up and goes, no, he's going to defect. You should believe me.
Speaker:Track 1: Why? Why?
Speaker:Track 3: Dude, even before that, when he's in the fucking helicopter,
Speaker:Track 3: and he's telling the dude, he's like, I need to get on that fucking submarine. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: And the pilot's like, I only have like so much fuel. And he's like,
Speaker:Track 3: you got an extra 10 minutes. Use that.
Speaker:Track 3: And it's like, I can only use that in fucking wartime. What are you talking about?
Speaker:Track 3: And he gives them a little motivational speech. And the guy's like,
Speaker:Track 3: yeah, no problem. I'll use my fucking reserves.
Speaker:Track 3: It's like, that's not fucking happening. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: That's true.
Speaker:Track 3: Those dudes put a lot of work in to get to the position that they're at.
Speaker:Track 3: They're not just going to fucking throw that shit away for some nobody.
Speaker:Track 3: But it's some hole in the wall.
Speaker:Track 1: He's the CIA. And that's really what it boils down to. This is an.
Speaker:Track 3: He doesn't even identify himself like instantly to like a lot of people. He's just like.
Speaker:Track 2: He's also wearing the military uniform too, which they also are annoyed about.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. And he's like, he's not that high rank enough to be demanding what he's demanding.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. And he's pretty young too. Would he be that rank at that age?
Speaker:Track 3: Just simply not. No.
Speaker:Track 1: All of it just feels like I said, like it's just, it's, it, it,
Speaker:Track 1: there's so much of it feels forced just to glaze the cia like that's all it is it's just like it.
Speaker:Track 3: Has the tom clancy.
Speaker:Track 1: How can we how can we just
Speaker:Track 1: push the narrative that the
Speaker:Track 1: cia and the agents that work for the
Speaker:Track 1: cia are truly the best
Speaker:Track 1: of the best they are smarter better more morally you know sound they are you
Speaker:Track 1: know the ultimate arbiters of truth america and the you know justice in the
Speaker:Track 1: american way and if the and if a cia agent says it it's true if.
Speaker:Track 3: There's that cool how are they getting.
Speaker:Track 2: Havana syndrome so much.
Speaker:Track 3: I completely agree with you but at the same time,
Speaker:Track 3: Sean Connery when he rips out that fucking it reminds me of the heady days of
Speaker:Track 3: Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin and the when the world trembled at the sound of our
Speaker:Track 3: rockets now they'll tremble again at the sound of our silence that shit went
Speaker:Track 3: fucking hard I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker:Track 1: And then.
Speaker:Track 3: They went all singing that shit was.
Speaker:Track 1: Awesome 100% it absolutely did and yet like that was a lie like he was yeah
Speaker:Track 1: I know it was like it went hard
Speaker:Track 1: because in our hearts we were like yes you should extol the virtues of the soviet
Speaker:Track 1: union that's why that went hard you should we're like yeah yuri was awesome you.
Speaker:Track 2: Notice that they also the character's name was putin although i guess at this.
Speaker:Track 1: Time yes yeah the first time it shit the first time he said it and it like i
Speaker:Track 1: was like what what the fuck joy.
Speaker:Track 3: Did the same thing when.
Speaker:Track 1: We're watching it I'm glad I wasn't the only one.
Speaker:Track 3: She was like, bad Putin? I was like, nah. No, no, no, no.
Speaker:Track 2: I wrote that in my note. I wrote Putin question mark.
Speaker:Track 1: This is just a nobody Putin.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's.
Speaker:Track 1: Putin random.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh, I mean, another thing that is pretty awesome is when Sean Connery is,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, leading them through those trenches.
Speaker:Track 2: And everyone is basically, I don't know how accurate any of this is,
Speaker:Track 2: but they're, they don't believe that he's going to be able to get them through.
Speaker:Track 2: it and he does these crazy maneuvers and he just like whips them through i don't
Speaker:Track 2: know is it if you hit one of those trenches is it just gonna fuck up one of
Speaker:Track 2: those submarines or would that just give away your locate or both yeah it'll fuck that.
Speaker:Track 3: Shit up yeah it will fuck that shit up yeah boats boats don't handle yeah boats
Speaker:Track 3: and submarines don't handle running into shit very well.
Speaker:Track 2: Like at all Famously.
Speaker:Track 1: Famously, there's a whole, there's a, there's one boat particularly famous for
Speaker:Track 1: hitting something and it going really poorly.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, poor Leo.
Speaker:Track 3: And with that description alone, it could be multiple shipwrecks.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. But I mean, like, no, yeah, definitely.
Speaker:Track 2: What do you think the scene also I thought was really funny is when they both
Speaker:Track 2: go up and they're like, you know, with the periscope and they're doing the Morse
Speaker:Track 2: code to each other. Would they be?
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: He's like pounding that in pretty quickly.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. Well, I'd like how he said, like, he's a he's pretty rusty.
Speaker:Track 3: So he's like, I'm he's winging it.
Speaker:Track 3: That's how it's coming out so fast for him. But like, I like that.
Speaker:Track 3: Cause it's like, that shit would never happen in real life. Like the awkwardness
Speaker:Track 3: of two fucking nuclear submarines next to each other like that. No.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. That was a little, but I know it was fun. I'd like that.
Speaker:Track 3: It was a fun scene. I like, I still enjoyed it.
Speaker:Track 1: My favorite part was when the two subs meet up.
Speaker:Track 1: And he literally asks for a hammer so he can knock on the hatch.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh, that was great.
Speaker:Track 1: Give him that hammer. And I just love the idea. I just love the idea that that's
Speaker:Track 1: what they, they just have a hammer hang in there for that. That's what it's there for.
Speaker:Track 1: That's its only job is to, to knock on other subs doors.
Speaker:Track 2: And then when they go into the other sub and they're like, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: they have guns and basically like, don't shoot anything you're not supposed
Speaker:Track 2: to in that room. where all the really blowing up stuff is and he's you know
Speaker:Track 2: they're just firing at each other and nothing explodes but.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah that's the silo tube room where it's literally that's where all the nukes
Speaker:Track 3: are but like funnily enough you can like go look on YouTube you can shoot bullets
Speaker:Track 3: at nukes all day yeah it's fine that's not how they work yeah,
Speaker:Track 3: it's just not how they work.
Speaker:Track 1: Baldwin was he was I was said Baldwin was funny like he was good and like when
Speaker:Track 1: in that whole scene when he's with Connery and he's like you know don't it's
Speaker:Track 1: like nothing in there there should be she's like oh yeah okay no nothing what
Speaker:Track 1: about me I don't want to get shot like you know like it was a genuinely funny moment.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah and then when the other guy's shooting he's like oh I'm not supposed to
Speaker:Track 3: shoot anything like sensitive okay and.
Speaker:Track 1: Then you have the the true hero the true.
Speaker:Track 3: Hero of.
Speaker:Track 1: This film the cook.
Speaker:Track 3: Whose name i don't remember i mean
Speaker:Track 3: that's what happens sometimes in revolution we have a lot of heroes that get
Speaker:Track 3: lost to history because we can't record all things i think it's logging on we're
Speaker:Track 3: we're all Shut up I'm talking I'm talking I'm talking.
Speaker:Track 2: I could be wrong about that.
Speaker:Track 1: No, you were correct.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, but no, he's the hero.
Speaker:Track 1: He's the true hero. He's the true hero. He sees what's going down,
Speaker:Track 1: and he wants to shut down.
Speaker:Track 3: Okay, I will say he could have got to that way earlier.
Speaker:Track 3: He let the drama drag out for a little bit longer before he showed up with a
Speaker:Track 3: gun and then fell back and tried to do the thing.
Speaker:Track 3: He could have just went and did the thing already and could have saved the day.
Speaker:Track 2: Did they make it, is it made explicitly clear that he is a intelligent agent?
Speaker:Track 1: No, it is not.
Speaker:Track 2: Which is kind of weird that they don't, right?
Speaker:Track 2: Like in the Wikipedia, if you look at his character, it says he's a GRU agent
Speaker:Track 2: on the Red October. And it doesn't actually say cook.
Speaker:Track 3: This is a film adaptation of a book.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Okay, okay.
Speaker:Track 3: That might be in the book.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, the movie.
Speaker:Track 2: I'm sure it was, right?
Speaker:Track 1: Like I said, The movie really does feel like a series of strung together set
Speaker:Track 1: pieces to glorify the CIA and villainize the Soviet Union.
Speaker:Track 1: There are huge, I mean, not plot holes. I've been calling plot holes.
Speaker:Track 1: It feels like a synopsis of a storyline at certain points.
Speaker:Track 2: There's a lot of leaps of faith.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. Yeah, you can't. I mean, that's, look at movies like Top Gun and those
Speaker:Track 2: kind of things where they're glorifying, but movies like that.
Speaker:Track 3: I mean, dude, Tom Clancy's always had a vibe of like a CIA dad telling his kid a bedtime story.
Speaker:Track 2: That's true.
Speaker:Track 3: That's all a Tom Clancy story.
Speaker:Track 1: That's exactly what it feels like. It's exactly what it feels like.
Speaker:Track 1: It's a bedtime story. It's a bedtime story for the American public about the CIA.
Speaker:Track 1: That's what this is. I mean, it's not as bad as people meet on vacation,
Speaker:Track 1: which is, like I said, like I told you guys the other day, like,
Speaker:Track 1: is, like, the memory of a synopsis of the cliff notes of the plot of the book.
Speaker:Track 1: But, like, it's still, like...
Speaker:Track 2: I mean, when you say it's really glorifying it that way, like when this movie
Speaker:Track 2: comes out after the Cold War is basically over,
Speaker:Track 2: at that point, do they even need to vilify the Soviet Union or is it more to
Speaker:Track 2: say to justify the actions to the public just to puff up America? Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Because you— Like at this point— It's.
Speaker:Track 1: It's over. And now it's like, but you still have to, you still,
Speaker:Track 1: now you have to continue to justify because you're not going to pack all that shit up.
Speaker:Track 1: You're not going to cut the budget. They're not going to stop doing stuff.
Speaker:Track 1: Now you have to, now you have to continue to justify all of that.
Speaker:Track 1: Now you won and now you have to continue to justify why you're going to keep
Speaker:Track 1: doing all this shit you do.
Speaker:Track 2: Good point. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: And not only that you got an american audience that like doesn't really understand
Speaker:Track 3: history yeah and politics so like you can get away with shit like this and like air force one.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah that that's also true.
Speaker:Track 1: Like what do you think what do you think the average like the real understanding
Speaker:Track 1: of the cold war being quote-unquote over like was for the right person like.
Speaker:Track 2: I mean, it's one of those things where.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, for years following this, action movies at this time,
Speaker:Track 1: like still, the Russians were still the enemies. They were still the villains. For years.
Speaker:Track 2: That's true.
Speaker:Track 1: It wasn't until.
Speaker:Track 2: It wasn't until the 90s and then they switched to Arabs.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. Like late 90s. Not even, you know, not mid 90s, not early 90s, late 90s.
Speaker:Track 3: Hey, Terminator 2 is an, Judgment Day is an exception.
Speaker:Track 3: who's oh when they're talking about skynet launching the fucking nukes and everything
Speaker:Track 3: it was like against russia aren't they our friends now yeah yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh yeah it's.
Speaker:Track 3: Like one of the few exceptions.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah and they they've been punishing uh them ever since they made that movie
Speaker:Track 2: yeah yeah i mean i guess you're right it was it's interesting that they started
Speaker:Track 2: demonizing arabs before 9-11 like maybe they knew that was gonna happen i don't know it's.
Speaker:Track 3: Almost like there It's because.
Speaker:Track 1: Well, that was because that demonization was in response to Iran,
Speaker:Track 1: largely, and like our...
Speaker:Track 1: relationship with them going even worse.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah it's interesting i just googled uh like i went to a wikipedia page where
Speaker:Track 2: they talk about the portrayal of arabs in film and they point to the movie rules
Speaker:Track 2: of engagement as the moment when things flipped but i think it's true lies by far one of the most,
Speaker:Track 2: anti-islamic or uh and that was 1994 that was early i.
Speaker:Track 3: Mean true lies was early on that game for sure.
Speaker:Track 2: It was it is so racist holy shit
Speaker:Track 2: yes anyone out there should listen to the citations needed episode from like
Speaker:Track 2: 2020 they did a multiple part series where they talk about the demonization
Speaker:Track 2: of arabs in film and like they point to that one as numero uno tommy.
Speaker:Track 1: Lee jones is in so many movies glorifying the U.S. military. It is wild.
Speaker:Track 2: Tommy Lee Jones?
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: The Fugitive?
Speaker:Track 1: He's in so many.
Speaker:Track 3: That's FBI.
Speaker:Track 2: U.S. Marshals. Isn't that like a sequel to that?
Speaker:Track 3: That's another law enforcement agency and not the military.
Speaker:Track 1: Whatever. It's just the U.S. like hegemonic you know. You know,
Speaker:Track 1: overall, just the whole thing.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. If you have a character that represents the U.S.
Speaker:Track 1: and has a gun, Tommy Lee Jones, he's there for it.
Speaker:Track 3: The hunted. That's a perfect example.
Speaker:Track 2: Man, now I need to look at his film catalog. I don't know.
Speaker:Track 2: Is there any, I mean, the end of this movie, of course, U.S., good guy. U.S. did good.
Speaker:Track 2: Ryan and, like, they have, like, this whole.
Speaker:Track 3: Not only is U.S. good guy, but U.S. also gets to embarrass the Russian, the Soviet ambassador.
Speaker:Track 1: That scene, like, he's straight up. When he says that and he's like,
Speaker:Track 1: oh, you lost another sub?
Speaker:Track 3: Dude, not even that.
Speaker:Track 1: Or how many?
Speaker:Track 3: You lost another submarine? Like, brother, I just helped you out with one.
Speaker:Track 3: You really asking me about another?
Speaker:Track 1: As if the U.S. hasn't lost multiple nuclear weapons.
Speaker:Track 2: Right?
Speaker:Track 1: In its own country.
Speaker:Track 3: How many Ospreys have crashed with Marines inside of them?
Speaker:Track 1: I just want to say, you've lost multiple nuclear missiles within the borders
Speaker:Track 1: of your own country. Like, you didn't even leave home and you lost that shit.
Speaker:Track 1: There are nuclear missiles just in the United States. We don't know where.
Speaker:Track 1: Just fucking in the forest somewhere.
Speaker:Track 3: I love that the projector tasks you, comrade, if you have a spare weekend,
Speaker:Track 3: go find a nuclear device near you.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, there's like three off the coast of the Carolinas, I believe.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Really?
Speaker:Track 1: Yes.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Jesus Christ.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. Go Google Broken Arrow. Have fun.
Speaker:Track 1: Not even far off the coast of the Carolinas.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, I'm not talking like, you know, right outside international waters.
Speaker:Track 3: No. We're talking go get a fan boat. Some scuba gear, brother.
Speaker:Track 1: Stumble on that shit in Myrtle Beach.
Speaker:Track 2: You're taking your kids out for ice cream and fuck. The little bomb washes up on the boardwalk.
Speaker:Track 1: Jesus Christ.
Speaker:Track 1: Got some fucking gall.
Speaker:Track 2: I do like the one thing that they do to get all of the people off the ship is
Speaker:Track 2: they fake a nuclear leak to get them all off the ship,
Speaker:Track 2: which is pretty smart.
Speaker:Track 1: What I think, though, and I'm sorry, Evan, I'm not going to address that at
Speaker:Track 1: all. I think you are correct.
Speaker:Track 3: Anyways, here's Bill's point.
Speaker:Track 1: We've talked about this before about how basically like part
Speaker:Track 1: of the problem that we like are seeing in the u.s
Speaker:Track 1: itself and like within the u.s ruling class is
Speaker:Track 1: that basically like they've gotten the propaganda
Speaker:Track 1: and the u.s has gone up for so long and
Speaker:Track 1: it is that it's actually started to
Speaker:Track 1: infect the minds of the ruling class
Speaker:Track 1: as well and that like what we are watching
Speaker:Track 1: now is the result of an
Speaker:Track 1: entire ruling class that watched shit
Speaker:Track 1: like this came up in this and the
Speaker:Track 1: entire like the military apparatus as well
Speaker:Track 1: because they're starting like all the people like
Speaker:Track 1: as we said like you still have to hire other
Speaker:Track 1: people still come up and then like you know
Speaker:Track 1: through that and then serve in these these things and that
Speaker:Track 1: you have tainted them with this
Speaker:Track 1: shit and now we have an entire group of
Speaker:Track 1: people running the country and i'm not saying
Speaker:Track 1: they were ever anybody running this country ever was fucking like you know a
Speaker:Track 1: genius or brilliant or morally upstanding or whatever right but there is a difference
Speaker:Track 1: between being villainous evil self-serving and basically being the end result.
Speaker:Track 1: Brain rot propaganda and that's what we're
Speaker:Track 1: looking at we're looking at people that watched movies like this and thought
Speaker:Track 1: themselves yeah that's how america functions you get the russian ambassador
Speaker:Track 1: in and you just like you just cook them you're like yeah you lost another one
Speaker:Track 1: yeah that's how that's how real world that's how yeah that's what that's what
Speaker:Track 1: you do yeah and it's like that's not how yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: We get jd vance to make fun of.
Speaker:Track 1: Fucking zelinski in the white house like that's what
Speaker:Track 1: that's where we're at now we have an entire ruling
Speaker:Track 1: class that is actually high on its
Speaker:Track 1: own supply it's it's high on its own supply and it it is started to staff like
Speaker:Track 1: the actual military and like actual shit that needs to be done with people that
Speaker:Track 1: think like movies that's the propaganda is on.
Speaker:Track 3: Display in Iran.
Speaker:Track 1: Right now everyone is 12 yeah do.
Speaker:Track 3: You think it's they think it's some simple silver bullet like perfect answer
Speaker:Track 3: like oh we'll just like assassinate the Ayatollah it's like that's not how that
Speaker:Track 3: works dog who would have guessed you cut the head off the Hydra there's two.
Speaker:Track 1: More because.
Speaker:Track 3: It's wow it's a rich and complex society like who would have guessed that yeah they literally.
Speaker:Track 1: Are getting their ideas.
Speaker:Track 2: From film yeah yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: It's not life is not a fucking movie and that's this
Speaker:Track 1: country has fed this kind of shit to its population for so long that now it
Speaker:Track 1: has become it is it is not just the it has become the superstructure and like
Speaker:Track 1: it's like fuck this is bad it's like you can't even be villainous,
Speaker:Track 1: and like rub two brain cells together.
Speaker:Track 1: It's just, this is what it is. It's just people parroting what they see in movies. And it's absurd.
Speaker:Track 1: It really does feel like this is, it's I think,
Speaker:Track 1: This movie is a bedtime story that America tells itself. It really is.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. It's the American dream.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Happy birthday, America, and fuck you.
Speaker:Track 1: I did not particularly enjoy this movie. I don't enjoy, I have no like,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, I don't care about subs.
Speaker:Track 1: I don't have that autism. I don't care. I was just like, yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: It's funny the thing is that now i find it harder to watch even like movies
Speaker:Track 2: that i liked when i was you know a kid that are military like you know pro cia
Speaker:Track 2: type of shit this i even though i accept it that it's glorifying america i thought it's a great movie.
Speaker:Track 1: It just felt so 90s.
Speaker:Track 2: It's just it's fun oh.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh it's such a 90s movie it's.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah that's that's all i could do like it just feels so 90s I don't know what it was about it.
Speaker:Track 3: That's just, it's very 90s.
Speaker:Track 2: I just, I did my, my, like my thing about it is they made a movie on submarines,
Speaker:Track 2: which just like, if you describe this movie to someone, they'd probably say,
Speaker:Track 2: really, you're going to make a movie about that?
Speaker:Track 2: And they make it pretty compelling for me, for my personal, I mean.
Speaker:Track 1: I do think the, the effect, like the practical, like the Sentinel and stuff, very impressive.
Speaker:Track 1: I will never, you know, deny that. Very impressive.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Absolutely awesome.
Speaker:Track 3: I'm not solid too.
Speaker:Track 1: Yes.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. I mean, I, there rarely do you have a movie too with just,
Speaker:Track 2: I mean, a lot of these are character actors.
Speaker:Track 2: I understand, but just everyone across the board is just.
Speaker:Track 1: Uh, yeah. Like there's nothing that like, I can like point to like literally
Speaker:Track 1: the only reason I don't like this movie is basically the politics.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, uh, that's really, that's it. That's why I didn't enjoy it. It's the politics.
Speaker:Track 1: I, I couldn't see. I couldn't see past that at all.
Speaker:Track 1: I have no, i have no like childhood like
Speaker:Track 1: connection to this you know like i watched it once when i was you know probably
Speaker:Track 1: like 13 i have you know i have no nostalgia for it i at all and i'm just like
Speaker:Track 1: this is very 90s and america's terrible like that's what i yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Not wrong yeah no i i appreciate that the politics suck but just uh you know
Speaker:Track 2: there's some movies that somehow john mcclellan makes a good film.
Speaker:Track 1: I could have used more Toxic Beverly Crusher.
Speaker:Track 2: This movie does not pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker:Track 1: God no.
Speaker:Track 1: But to be fair, to be fair,
Speaker:Track 1: I honestly think that if there was more than one woman in it,
Speaker:Track 1: it would, because there is nothing in this film that is in any way,
Speaker:Track 1: shape or form sexual or any gendered at all.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, like it's just people talk about fucking submarines.
Speaker:Track 2: I feel like i have one funny thing there was like one line that i thought was good um i liked jonesy.
Speaker:Track 1: That's who i liked.
Speaker:Track 2: There was there i don't remember when this happened but i think it's near the
Speaker:Track 2: end and they're talking about maybe it's when ryan and connery are talking and
Speaker:Track 2: he says something like a little revolution now and then is a healthy thing yes you think,
Speaker:Track 2: wasn't that a weird line yes.
Speaker:Track 1: It really was i was like where did if you thought that man why the fuck did you come to this place.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, that was literally the last thing in my notes. I just thought,
Speaker:Track 2: why did they put that in there? But whatever.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, I don't know. It's like a, I don't know. It was kind of like a Ramius
Speaker:Track 3: is like a military stand-in for Soviet Rosenbergs.
Speaker:Track 3: Like, I don't know. This is another bedtime story, though.
Speaker:Track 2: Well, this one goes out to the fans. For myself, Evan, Bill Ward.
Speaker:Track 2: we don't have a cool catchphrase to end the show do we if you have.
Speaker:Track 3: A cool catchphrase for the podcast oh yeah if you got an idea for a cool wrap
Speaker:Track 3: up as i crack my beer a cool projector for the podcast left at the jacker do that.
Speaker:Track 1: Evan do that do.
Speaker:Track 3: We want to know thing.
Speaker:Track 1: On the stories and the instagrams.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh yeah that too oh.
Speaker:Track 1: Where you put the thing and people can fill out stuff god i sound.
Speaker:Track 3: We tell him from the basement oh where.
Speaker:Track 2: You can you ask a question and they can type in their their suggestion yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah do that.
Speaker:Track 2: You can you can find us on the internet you can listen to this podcast everywhere
Speaker:Track 2: absolutely you can you can hear us you can hear us in the in the sonar on uh on uh submarines.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh that ping was sick apparently they spent like a lot of time on that pink
Speaker:Track 3: oh like i was yeah i was uh i watched like some behind the scenes thing and
Speaker:Track 3: uh like it kind of reminded me how uh bill was talking about like the godzilla,
Speaker:Track 3: which godzilla movie was it.
Speaker:Track 1: 2014 how they like layered.
Speaker:Track 3: All together yeah yeah they did like a lot of work to figure out that pink.
