Episode 241
Showgirls (1995) with Lily Eagla
Two Verhoeven in a row! This week we are joined by Lily Eagla to discuss Verhoeven's notorious cult classic "Showgirls," a movie that stalled the career of Saved By The Bell alum Elizabeth Berkley before going on to be recognized as an important piece of satire ahead of its time. We discuss the uncompromising examination of Las Vegas, the way in which it represents the predatory and exploitative nature of the capitalist system, the dehumanization of sex workers, and try to understand the nature of the film's failure when it was released and why it has gone on to become an important piece of cultural criticism.
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Transcript
Track 1: All right, Bill, do you want me to do the intro since you're sort of just...
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. Oh, look, now it's sending all of my text messages to you,
Speaker:Track 2: Evan. I tried to call you, and I'm like, why is this not happening?
Speaker:Track 1: Oh, cool. That's weird. I still didn't actually get any of the ones you sent
Speaker:Track 1: me. Anyway, well, we can... Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: It's the government. It's the government. They're trying to keep us from having
Speaker:Track 3: an amazing podcast episode.
Speaker:Track 1: They're like, hey, you guys can't talk about Paul Verhoeven and Showgirls. It's not cool of you.
Speaker:Track 3: No, you can't. Sit back in your seats, get something to eat.
Speaker:Track 3: Watch this movie. Don't like to see.
Speaker:Track 1: Video. Thank you.
Speaker:Track 1: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,
Speaker:Track 1: back again with another film discussion from the left.
Speaker:Track 1: If you'd like to support the show for as little as $3 a month,
Speaker:Track 1: you can go to Patreon forward slash Left of the Projector Pod.
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Speaker:Track 1: weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday and now on to the show,
Speaker:Track 1: This week on Left to the Projector, we are so excited and scared to tell you
Speaker:Track 1: about the film we are here to discuss.
Speaker:Track 1: No, we're good. The film in question is Paul Verhoeven's 1995 erotic drama, Showgirls.
Speaker:Track 1: Its reputation at the time of release and for perhaps destroying unfairly the
Speaker:Track 1: career of Elizabeth Berkley.
Speaker:Track 1: Despite it crashing out at the box office, it became one of the most successful
Speaker:Track 1: films in the rental and physical media, making over $100 million,
Speaker:Track 1: which was double what it made in the theater.
Speaker:Track 1: Our guest this week is Lily Agla, who you may know from her Instagram account.
Speaker:Track 1: Thank you for being here today, Lily.
Speaker:Track 3: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Showgirls.
Speaker:Track 1: And so I guess I, well, first, if you want to share anything about your,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, your platform or anything like that.
Speaker:Track 1: And then my main initial question is why you chose Showgirls?
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. So my platform, I've only been online for about eight months now,
Speaker:Track 3: and I've been very lucky to have grown quite a bit.
Speaker:Track 3: And I mainly focus on doing like educational videos and news videos,
Speaker:Track 3: moving back to the Midwest soon. So hopefully I'll get to do more in-person
Speaker:Track 3: organizing once I'm over there.
Speaker:Track 3: Why did I choose Showgirls? I can't wait to explain why.
Speaker:Track 3: So Showgirls, cult classic, especially in the queer community. We love it.
Speaker:Track 3: We eat it up, mainly because the outfits and the music and the makeup are all amazing.
Speaker:Track 3: And from the list that you gave me, I've seen most of the movies that were on
Speaker:Track 3: the list, but none of them kind of like touched my heart.
Speaker:Track 3: And when I was trying to imagine talking about them from a Marxist perspective,
Speaker:Track 3: Once I saw showgirls on there I was like I don't think there's a better Example
Speaker:Track 3: Especially like as a young Woman online To dive into,
Speaker:Track 3: And you were really excited to do it, too. So that's great.
Speaker:Track 1: So in full disclosure, so I created this list like very early on when I made
Speaker:Track 1: this podcast three plus years ago now.
Speaker:Track 1: And Showgirls has been sitting on the list the entire time.
Speaker:Track 1: No one has been like, yes, I'm going to talk about Showgirls or I want to.
Speaker:Track 2: No, we tried to do it with Mary.
Speaker:Track 1: Oh, that's right. That's true. We did try and do it with we had we had floated it to someone else.
Speaker:Track 2: You're familiar with the account Revolutionary Thought?
Speaker:Track 3: Yes!
Speaker:Track 2: So, yeah, so I know her. That's Mary.
Speaker:Track 2: So, yeah, we had floated it to, like, Evan has, like, oh, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: like, I was like, we should ask Mary, and, like, Mary's the obvious choice.
Speaker:Track 2: But then schedules and so on. Yeah, no offense. Which is no offense to Lily whatsoever.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh, that's fine. Yeah, but they were like, no, no showgirls.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, but.
Speaker:Track 1: Well, they had never seen it, actually, so it would have been a first time watching it.
Speaker:Track 1: So I'll get your take on the movie in general, Lily, in a minute.
Speaker:Track 1: You had seen it before, obviously, you know the movie. But Bill,
Speaker:Track 1: since you had never seen it before, I have to know what you thought of it, just as a whole.
Speaker:Track 1: We don't need to spoil anything in the film yet.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't want to say—listen, I don't think it's—I think that it is a movie with
Speaker:Track 2: important things to talk about.
Speaker:Track 2: important things to say um i thought there was
Speaker:Track 2: you know like unexpected depth there
Speaker:Track 2: um but i did not enjoy it it
Speaker:Track 2: was not an enjoyable experience like it is not something that i would ever go
Speaker:Track 2: back to at all um and i found reading about it more engaging than actually watching it it made me,
Speaker:Track 2: full disclosure i started watching it
Speaker:Track 2: like on the couch sitting next
Speaker:Track 2: to my wife who was reading a book and i'm like this just
Speaker:Track 2: makes me feel uncomfortable i don't like this
Speaker:Track 2: i get it i get it like this
Speaker:Track 2: i'm not enjoying not the vibe yeah yeah because i'm like this isn't like i'm
Speaker:Track 2: not like watching it for any like it's work it's it's that's what it is you
Speaker:Track 2: know like i'm not watching this because i'm like i'm like oh god showgirls hell
Speaker:Track 2: yeah i want to watch showgirls i'm like i have a homework i own this.
Speaker:Track 1: Movie on blu-ray.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah you blu-ray you wrote it on 4k blu-ray i'd.
Speaker:Track 1: Seen it so oh my goodness and yeah 404 and well so part of the reason i that
Speaker:Track 1: that's the case number one is that like they had re-released it and has a lot
Speaker:Track 1: of i'm a big fan of like all the interviews and special features and hearing
Speaker:Track 1: what people say about it from the casting and everything so i guess um,
Speaker:Track 1: For people who don't know, this movie was absolutely panned even before it was released.
Speaker:Track 1: Every review with the exception of, I think, one. And actually,
Speaker:Track 1: Quentin Tarantino said he loved the movie, which...
Speaker:Track 3: Of course.
Speaker:Track 2: It's not a sign.
Speaker:Track 1: No, it's not a surprise.
Speaker:Track 2: That's not a ringing endorsement.
Speaker:Track 1: No. But at the time, he was extremely big. Pulp Fiction had come out the year
Speaker:Track 1: before. He was extremely popular. But the movie was panned.
Speaker:Track 1: When it came out, no one understood it. And I think as we talk about it,
Speaker:Track 1: I think we can maybe see why that is.
Speaker:Track 1: I did get an interview from about eight years ago with Gina Grishon and Paul
Speaker:Track 1: Verhoeven, where they sort of posited their reasons why the movie failed at the time.
Speaker:Track 1: And I mean, I guess we can talk about now. So what they both said was,
Speaker:Track 1: Gina Grishon said it sort of was maybe too much nudity, and it just kind of
Speaker:Track 1: wasn't what people were expecting.
Speaker:Track 1: And Paul Verhoeven said that sort of the movie was too, he said it was too hyperbolic.
Speaker:Track 1: of the style was too over the top, which is true, which is exactly what he's going for.
Speaker:Track 1: He's going for over the top dialogue, over the top acting, over the top cinematography, and all of it.
Speaker:Track 1: And that was the point. It was a satire. And no one understood that,
Speaker:Track 1: just like they never understood in any of his movies.
Speaker:Track 1: So I don't know what you think, Lily, of like the...
Speaker:Track 1: Maybe also like your history of having seen it and what do you think is like important about it?
Speaker:Track 1: I know you said like you like it as far as like an important film,
Speaker:Track 1: but like even going further.
Speaker:Track 3: It's so interesting because, and I want to posit this to you because did you
Speaker:Track 3: see it when it came out initially?
Speaker:Track 3: Like, do you remember seeing it or did you wait to see it a minute after?
Speaker:Track 1: So when it came out, I was 13 years old when it came out.
Speaker:Track 1: I saw it a couple of years later at a friend's house.
Speaker:Track 2: We weren't old enough.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, we're old. We're both in a...
Speaker:Track 2: We're old, but not that old.
Speaker:Track 1: Well, but I did see it a couple years later. A friend was able to rent it from the movie store.
Speaker:Track 1: Even though it was NC-17, it was a big deal. We watched it, but we were not watching it...
Speaker:Track 2: The movie store.
Speaker:Track 1: We weren't watching it to be entertained as far as thinking in any intellectual way.
Speaker:Track 1: We were just watching because it was naughty to be able to get access to it.
Speaker:Track 2: Here's my question regarding your friend renting it, though, because...
Speaker:Track 1: Their dad rented it for him.
Speaker:Track 2: It's irrelevant. Who rented it? It's not the bike.
Speaker:Track 1: Sorry, sorry. I thought you were going to ask me how I got it.
Speaker:Track 2: No. Evan, how did you break the laws of the movie rental studio store?
Speaker:Track 2: Well, they did specifically make an R-rated cut for rental purposes and home video.
Speaker:Track 2: So my question is, do you remember, was it the same cut as the one-
Speaker:Track 1: I don't know. I feel like I remember it being a big deal to get the NC-17 version,
Speaker:Track 1: but I don't know that we actually did get that.
Speaker:Track 1: And I saw the full-on, like, the regular NC-17 version when I was in college.
Speaker:Track 1: I remember seeing it then. And I hadn't seen—I've seen it maybe a couple times since then.
Speaker:Track 1: And every time I see it, I just think that there's just more depth in it than
Speaker:Track 1: people were ready for at the time. So, yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: So for you, like, what do you like as far as going further into depth of it
Speaker:Track 1: is sort of what makes it like an what makes it important?
Speaker:Track 3: I think important now, obviously, there are very few examples of sex work,
Speaker:Track 3: generally speaking, in movies and TV.
Speaker:Track 3: And the few examples that there are, are obviously usually centering sex workers
Speaker:Track 3: as something to be ashamed of, to be disgusted by.
Speaker:Track 3: They're on the outskirts of society. And this movie does highlight all of those normal stereotypes,
Speaker:Track 3: but it felt really humanizing because while you did point out that it's supposed
Speaker:Track 3: to be like super hyperbolic and over-exaggerated,
Speaker:Track 3: it's all very honest and true.
Speaker:Track 3: Like the career path of Nomi, like that is a very normal experience.
Speaker:Track 3: for for young women trying to make it you know whether that be las vegas or
Speaker:Track 3: la or new york and that really hasn't changed that much in the past like 30 years yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: One thing i learned in the in the special features was that paul verhoeven and
Speaker:Track 1: his some of the some of the the crew including the person who wrote the script.
Speaker:Track 3: They spent.
Speaker:Track 1: Several months in las vegas before they started filming to like interview people
Speaker:Track 1: in all of the positions of the movie to.
Speaker:Track 3: Understand exactly.
Speaker:Track 1: How everything worked so it's by you saying it's sort of like this is actually
Speaker:Track 1: sort of what it is proves even further the accuracy of what they're portraying.
Speaker:Track 3: Especially like in the mid-90s and honestly it's a really validating feeling
Speaker:Track 3: to see all of that in person in an air in a movie rather because people obviously
Speaker:Track 3: were like not into it like you said like it flopped and they weren't into all
Speaker:Track 3: the different elements of it maybe it was like too real but i i love that part
Speaker:Track 3: about it even if it is a little bit silly at times yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: I mean that's like i think i the question is like why did it like i can't imagine
Speaker:Track 2: like the way it is presented like there is no way a mainstream audience.
Speaker:Track 3: Would.
Speaker:Track 2: Take i mean first of all the fact that it's nc-17 alone like we already know
Speaker:Track 2: how our ratings impact box office returns nc-17 i you you might as well have
Speaker:Track 2: not released it you know like that I was going to shoot it in the foot.
Speaker:Track 2: The, the audience that is going to go.
Speaker:Track 2: And then on top of that, the audience is,
Speaker:Track 2: That is going to go to a movie based solely on the idea of like, oh, this is NC-17.
Speaker:Track 2: This is filled with, you know, sex and nudity. They're not going to go to it
Speaker:Track 2: with the, you know, auteurs like, you know, like these are not people who go watch.
Speaker:Track 2: God, what's that guy's name? You know, they're not the people that go to like
Speaker:Track 2: a mainstream theater or like, oh, if this is a mainstream NC-17 movie,
Speaker:Track 2: they're not going to go that. I'm like, oh, they're not going to dissect it.
Speaker:Track 2: This is a deeply thought out satire of American society and the way sex work
Speaker:Track 2: is demonized and the people within it are abused. They're not going to.
Speaker:Track 2: There's validity to the movie and there's validity to the message,
Speaker:Track 2: but it was set up to fail, I feel.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, so just as a side note, so I was looking at some of the film reviews that
Speaker:Track 1: came out when it was released.
Speaker:Track 1: When you go to the Wikipedia page, it sometimes lists some of them.
Speaker:Track 1: I went to the actual pages.
Speaker:Track 1: So one of the reviews, the very first line is, Small minds may say that Showgirls,
Speaker:Track 1: the first NC-17 film to get a wide release, da-da-da-da.
Speaker:Track 1: So they're immediately evoking NC-17, like, you can't go see this. It's scary.
Speaker:Track 1: Another one. What gets a movie, the dread, and the dreaded NC-17 rating these days?
Speaker:Track 1: Normally the reasons children are forbidden to see film are explicit sex,
Speaker:Track 1: blah, blah, blah. So all of the reviews weren't even willing to take the movie
Speaker:Track 1: at any kind of face value.
Speaker:Track 1: They're immediately saying like, oh, this is an NC-17 film. But they couldn't
Speaker:Track 1: even advertise it in the same way because most media magazines,
Speaker:Track 1: as most films were done back then, wouldn't even advertise for it because it was an NC-17.
Speaker:Track 3: Like Bill is obviously, I think in many parts, correct. But I would actually
Speaker:Track 3: argue that's kind of the beauty of cult classics. And that's like the beauty
Speaker:Track 3: of getting, I love movies so much, especially older movies.
Speaker:Track 3: And I, you know, I love getting to watch them like so many decades after they
Speaker:Track 3: come out because they don't have the pressure of, of, of, what do you call them?
Speaker:Track 3: Of reviewers anymore. You just get to enjoy them separate from the time that
Speaker:Track 3: they, they were created.
Speaker:Track 2: Or the commodification of it.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: In a certain way, cult movies, cult classics, they're beyond commodification
Speaker:Track 2: at that point. Because it's not about what's the return.
Speaker:Track 2: I agree 100%. Like, absolutely, you are totally 100% correct.
Speaker:Track 2: Watching movies later on...
Speaker:Track 2: after they've you know like what did we watch recently it was the same thing
Speaker:Track 2: it was like it became a cool class like like years later that just and it sheds
Speaker:Track 2: a lot of the the the cultural baggage and you can look at a different way honestly
Speaker:Track 2: i feel like eddington is going to be like that evan.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah so gina grishon during that same interview they
Speaker:Track 1: said to her you know like what what do you when you when you go
Speaker:Track 1: on interview or she says whenever she goes on any interview for
Speaker:Track 1: any other movie she's doing they always ask her about showgirls and
Speaker:Track 1: she said that a lot of the reviewers who gave it you
Speaker:Track 1: know no stars half a star when it was released now
Speaker:Track 1: are interviewing her and will say oh yeah you know
Speaker:Track 1: i actually watched showgirls recently and it's really good i you know they're
Speaker:Track 1: so fake and i don't know that i can fully believe them or it's just it tells
Speaker:Track 1: me that the generally speaking and this isn't the case across the board there's
Speaker:Track 1: obviously good movie reviewers but like mainstream movie reviewers for you know
Speaker:Track 1: los angeles times new york times whatever,
Speaker:Track 1: they could be correct but i think they also like to go the way that's you know
Speaker:Track 1: popular and they're gonna you know um you know it's it's a mainstream outlet
Speaker:Track 1: so i don't know if they actually did enjoy the movie then or they just had to
Speaker:Track 1: say it sucked because you know that was whatever they're supposed to.
Speaker:Track 3: Do or whatever.
Speaker:Track 1: But yeah i.
Speaker:Track 2: Don't believe any of that.
Speaker:Track 1: Listen also.
Speaker:Track 2: Means all critics are bastards Yes. Like, they're all fucking liars.
Speaker:Track 2: Listen, I will never get over – Evan knows this. This is my favorite – this is my Roman Empire.
Speaker:Track 2: The critics' reviews –
Speaker:Track 2: of the movie creator but the creator by gareth edwards like just reams of people
Speaker:Track 2: deliberately misunderstanding that film and i'm like i don't trust any of you
Speaker:Track 2: i don't believe any of you anything you say.
Speaker:Track 1: So this this is completely maybe unrelated but maybe we can start i mean i'll
Speaker:Track 1: also give like a quick just sort of overview of what happens but one thing i
Speaker:Track 1: did learn in doing the in looking at this the person who wrote the screenplay
Speaker:Track 1: his name is joe esterhass i looked into his Wikipedia page.
Speaker:Track 1: And of course, they have a section on political views. And he describes himself
Speaker:Track 1: as an independent centrist who voted for Bill Clinton, Barack Obama,
Speaker:Track 1: Ross Perot, George W. Bush, and Donald Trump.
Speaker:Track 1: And then it also says he's a staunch supporter of Israel, which, I mean, not surprising.
Speaker:Track 3: Damn. Also, who's Perot? I've never heard that name before.
Speaker:Track 1: He ran as an independent in 1992 and I think 88 and actually got like 23% of
Speaker:Track 1: the vote. It was like the and ever.
Speaker:Track 2: Since then they've.
Speaker:Track 1: Prevented any independent from running.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah he was a billionaire millionaire no billionaire he was a billionaire um oh.
Speaker:Track 3: Already at that time yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah it was a big deal because like that's he just independently like funded
Speaker:Track 2: this like whole like campaign that's all it was he was so we were 10 years old
Speaker:Track 2: and we both remember it like because.
Speaker:Track 3: It was a huge deal.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: He was on like the in the debate he kept making george bush Bill Clinton,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, answer for the things that, you know, they should answer for.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: And they did. And then, you know, the people didn't like, you know,
Speaker:Track 1: the Democrats, Republicans didn't like that.
Speaker:Track 3: How interesting. Okay. So we got an Israeli who wrote this.
Speaker:Track 1: It's just the only reason I bring it up.
Speaker:Track 1: probably 90% of the movies do the people who are involved are like, you know, pro-Israel.
Speaker:Track 1: But it's interesting that someone like that would make this movie and it sort
Speaker:Track 1: of, in my brain, takes away from the actual message.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, it seems like his opinions on things would be the opposite of what actually comes out.
Speaker:Track 1: Which, I don't know if that's because of, yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Like, progressive except Palestine.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, I guess it could be. It could be that, yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: I would argue that this has less to do with that and more to do with the fact that,
Speaker:Track 2: Directors have an outsized influence on the manner in which scripts are interpreted and presented.
Speaker:Track 2: And Verhoeven is Verhoeven.
Speaker:Track 3: That's a very good point.
Speaker:Track 2: He wasn't going to take a script that was in some way more conservative and
Speaker:Track 2: not turn it into something.
Speaker:Track 2: He has a history of...
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, that's a good point. All of his movies are sort of satirical in nature for the most part.
Speaker:Track 1: So it makes sense that he would do, take whatever he was given and turn it into,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, something like this.
Speaker:Track 1: So I'll give everyone just a very brief sort of synopsis of it.
Speaker:Track 1: And, you know, we're not going to go through every part, but it's,
Speaker:Track 1: so again, it starred Elizabeth Berkley.
Speaker:Track 1: And for people from the nineties, they may remember her. She was one of the
Speaker:Track 1: stars on Saved by the Bell in the early 1990s.
Speaker:Track 1: And this was sort of her big first movie stepping out.
Speaker:Track 1: And this was what she got. She was actually a dancer. so
Speaker:Track 1: almost she had been training since she was i think three years
Speaker:Track 1: old as a dancer so she was perfect for the part in
Speaker:Track 1: terms of that she is sort of a hitchhiker coming to las
Speaker:Track 1: vegas and she really has nothing she
Speaker:Track 1: gets robbed immediately by the person who is you know bringing her into vegas
Speaker:Track 1: she meets her friend named molly who ends up sort of like taking her in as a
Speaker:Track 1: roommate who works at a this sort of uh at the stardust casino as a costume
Speaker:Track 1: designer whereas nomi is,
Speaker:Track 1: a stripper at sort of a, I guess it's sort of a high end.
Speaker:Track 1: Maybe gentlemen's club.
Speaker:Track 1: And it's sort of the story as her wanting to make the next step.
Speaker:Track 1: And that is to become a star and to be able to be in this show.
Speaker:Track 1: And so we kind of see the underbelly of Las Vegas and these different places,
Speaker:Track 1: the, the, the strip club and the casino and the people behind them.
Speaker:Track 1: And it's, um, you know, it's.
Speaker:Track 1: And Gina Gershon is sort of the star of the show that's called Goddess.
Speaker:Track 1: And, you know, as the film progresses, Nomi attempts and tries to move her way
Speaker:Track 1: up to being the head of the show.
Speaker:Track 1: And we'll get to maybe some of the...
Speaker:Track 1: more of the end a little later, perhaps. So I don't know, because this is like
Speaker:Track 1: a leftist Marxist podcast, and we're sort of trying to maybe take that perspective.
Speaker:Track 1: I wonder, since Bill, you were also saying like, oh, this booby has lots of
Speaker:Track 1: layers to it, but maybe for maybe for both of you too, Lillias, what do you see?
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, so one of the things I thought was it's sort of the concept just of
Speaker:Track 1: generally of capitalism and the idea that,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, anyone can make their own way
Speaker:Track 1: this individualistic sort of path make you know uh you know what is it um pick
Speaker:Track 1: your yeah boots pick your up by your bootstrap do what you can do whatever it
Speaker:Track 1: takes to get to you know the quote-unquote top i mean that's maybe sort of a
Speaker:Track 1: oversimplification of it at all but no.
Speaker:Track 3: I think you're on that you're on the nose.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah and well my first i was also thinking What do you see as Nomi symbolizing,
Speaker:Track 1: like this version of American culture or something like that?
Speaker:Track 3: Nomi is such an amazing stereotype. And I think actually the fact that Elizabeth
Speaker:Track 3: Berkley is so beautiful only adds to her character.
Speaker:Track 3: Because she is beautiful. She's perfect. She's very naive.
Speaker:Track 3: And then simultaneously, as we learn about her character more, no, she's not naive.
Speaker:Track 3: she knows exactly what she's doing and she's a quick learner and she'll do what
Speaker:Track 3: she has to do and then we come to the end of the movie no spoilers but she decides
Speaker:Track 3: to leave it would seem after she has had this huge story arc,
Speaker:Track 3: but it's so interesting because I'm going to be personal here a little bit,
Speaker:Track 3: maybe that's also why I like the movie so much, I moved to LA at 18 and wanted
Speaker:Track 3: to do the whole acting thing and had a great time and Nomi is,
Speaker:Track 3: Like so many other women specifically that are told they can move somewhere and make it.
Speaker:Track 3: But the reality is that there's a sacrifice for everything.
Speaker:Track 3: And that's what her whole story is. Every choice that she makes,
Speaker:Track 3: you almost immediately, which maybe is part of like the kitschiness of the movie,
Speaker:Track 3: you almost immediately see the backslide of the sacrifice that she is forced
Speaker:Track 3: to make in order for her dream to continue to come true.
Speaker:Track 3: which gets gnarly and gnarlier throughout the story.
Speaker:Track 2: My like biggest issue was
Speaker:Track 2: like she seemed to hate
Speaker:Track 2: what she wanted to do anyway
Speaker:Track 2: she always just seemed angry
Speaker:Track 2: about it you set out
Speaker:Track 2: to do this and it wasn't like it wasn't
Speaker:Track 2: like you know it didn't feel like somebody who was like put
Speaker:Track 2: into a position and they were like i have no choice but to do this it she presented
Speaker:Track 2: initially as if she had chosen and was actively seeking this but then every
Speaker:Track 2: time she was even when she was doing it she seemed angry about it i found her
Speaker:Track 2: character incredibly unlikable yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Most people do.
Speaker:Track 2: I was just like why would anyone help her she is so she's so mean to molly like right off the bat.
Speaker:Track 2: I'm like, why would, why would this poor woman offer her a place? She's so mean.
Speaker:Track 3: Poor Molly.
Speaker:Track 2: She's so hostile. Like I want, that's, I want Molly's story.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, that is the story I want. I want Molly's story because Molly seems to have, like,
Speaker:Track 2: there's, there, Molly is a far more, not just sympathetic character,
Speaker:Track 2: but like a, a likable character.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, Molly, you want to talk, to look at, you want to see and move forward with.
Speaker:Track 2: And it's like, Nomi just seems mean. and it's like why are you treating even
Speaker:Track 2: like your friend like this including when she leaves and i'm like you just left.
Speaker:Track 1: I have a maybe a theory well two well
Speaker:Track 1: one thing well one thing is that when another reason why i think gina
Speaker:Track 1: gershon also said that people struggled to like it
Speaker:Track 1: was that there was no real likable characters except
Speaker:Track 1: for molly but i got the sense that the
Speaker:Track 1: way that nomi acted around like two other people even
Speaker:Track 1: the people that are trying to help her like the other uh the
Speaker:Track 1: person she meets who's going to help him uh what's his name a james who's like
Speaker:Track 1: a dancer she meets at a club and is trying to help her learn how to dance and
Speaker:Track 1: she could just meet him the entire time constantly over and over like rebuffing
Speaker:Track 1: him uh rebuking him or which is the word i meant rebuffing that's the one i
Speaker:Track 1: meant and it seemed to me that she wanted to do everything,
Speaker:Track 1: on her own she didn't want help from anyone and
Speaker:Track 1: i think that reinforces the idea that the movie is very much this sort of capitalist
Speaker:Track 1: you know uh just where you i mean you just want to step on the people around
Speaker:Track 1: you but don't want their help to do it you you want to get there on your own
Speaker:Track 1: but i i agree she is yeah and.
Speaker:Track 3: The irony is of course she had she had to rely on everyone.
Speaker:Track 1: To get exactly like.
Speaker:Track 3: She couldn't do anything on her.
Speaker:Track 2: Own but also like james is also a shitty person too.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah james.
Speaker:Track 2: Is not a.
Speaker:Track 3: Good guy either which is the whole thing.
Speaker:Track 2: He's also not yeah she wants to do it alone but like also she's right like he's
Speaker:Track 2: clearly like seeking to prey on her right off the bat he sees a beautiful woman
Speaker:Track 2: who dances apparently well,
Speaker:Track 2: I hate, I literally, my wife turns to me and she's like, do you find this like sexy?
Speaker:Track 2: And I was like, no, she looks angry every, like I genuinely like,
Speaker:Track 2: I like, but I like, like, you know, like, I think it's beautiful.
Speaker:Track 2: I'm like, she just seems angry. Like, I don't want to watch,
Speaker:Track 2: I feel, I don't want to watch this.
Speaker:Track 2: I'm like, she's angry. She wants to dance, but also hates everyone for wanting,
Speaker:Track 2: which at the same time is indicative of the way in which society rewards,
Speaker:Track 2: and by rewards I mean that in the most sarcastic, contrary way,
Speaker:Track 2: rewards beauty by preying on it.
Speaker:Track 2: And it's like, I understand why someone would respond aggressively in response to that, but...
Speaker:Track 2: But being on the brunt of it for two hours is not incredibly pleasant.
Speaker:Track 1: So Bill said that Nomi is unlikable and that's kind of the common perception.
Speaker:Track 1: Do you see it differently?
Speaker:Track 3: I don't dislike Nomi any more than I dislike any of the other characters.
Speaker:Track 1: Fair.
Speaker:Track 3: I think, yeah. Molly, with the
Speaker:Track 3: exception of Molly, because Molly didn't do anything wrong the whole time.
Speaker:Track 3: No. Like Molly gets the worst end of the stick and she's great.
Speaker:Track 3: But yeah, but they're all these like these people who fend for themselves,
Speaker:Track 3: just like you said, incredibly individualistic.
Speaker:Track 3: And it's not even just that Nomi's being preyed upon.
Speaker:Track 3: They're all preying on one another, you know, for their own selfish desires.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. So I can't blame Nomi, nor do I like really hate that she's upset.
Speaker:Track 3: Because I'm like, honestly, even if this is her dream, going through your dream
Speaker:Track 3: and then realizing, like, fuck, I have to be assaulted and preyed upon at every
Speaker:Track 3: corner to get what I want. Okay, I guess.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, it's just she's layered. She's complicated.
Speaker:Track 1: All the people in the performance, once Nomi gets sort of the audition and is
Speaker:Track 1: able to be in the show as sort of a side dancer, that's not actually the right
Speaker:Track 1: word, just in the ensemble cast.
Speaker:Track 2: Backup dancer.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, backup dancer, ensemble. All of the other people working as other dancers
Speaker:Track 1: all seem to hate each other and will just step on each other at any chance they get.
Speaker:Track 3: Yep.
Speaker:Track 1: And I think that just deepens the message there.
Speaker:Track 2: I have never been to Las Vegas. I cannot.
Speaker:Track 3: You're good.
Speaker:Track 2: I.
Speaker:Track 2: Listen, Lily, I got to be honest with you.
Speaker:Track 2: There has never been a place I wanted to go to less.
Speaker:Track 3: Right?
Speaker:Track 2: I am built, number one, for the cold. Number two, I do not gamble.
Speaker:Track 2: There is nothing about Las Vegas to me that is appealing in any way, shape, or form.
Speaker:Track 2: And watching this movie, I was like, and then Evan's like, they spent six months
Speaker:Track 2: making sure Las Vegas is, I'm like, okay, yeah. Most of this movie tells me
Speaker:Track 2: is Las Vegas is the worst place on the fucking planet.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, bar none.
Speaker:Track 2: But from a serious perspective, to me, in many ways, Las Vegas is very much the – it is the.
Speaker:Track 2: It is the distillation of American capital and American society.
Speaker:Track 2: And that is what this entire movie was, which for me,
Speaker:Track 2: part, part of it was like, part of it was why I found, because I don't particularly
Speaker:Track 2: like watching things where I'm like, I, I know America is the worst place.
Speaker:Track 2: I know capitalism is fucking horrible. Like I know these things.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like when, when the handmaid's tale came
Speaker:Track 2: out and everyone was like oh you gotta watch bill like you're a leftist you
Speaker:Track 2: gotta watch him i'm like i already know this place sucks i
Speaker:Track 2: don't need to watch a show about it like that's what it felt like
Speaker:Track 2: you don't need validation through like a really depressing movie or
Speaker:Track 2: season exactly exactly 100
Speaker:Track 2: that's what it felt like i don't need to watch and then
Speaker:Track 2: and then on top of that have like you know just gratuitous
Speaker:Track 2: just sex and nudity which seemed to me to be mostly just for I mean I don't
Speaker:Track 2: know if shock value is like or just like it didn't add anything positive to it to me it just it just,
Speaker:Track 2: took it even further.
Speaker:Track 1: I have another thought but go ahead share.
Speaker:Track 3: Your thought first i'm curious.
Speaker:Track 1: No no no all right so i was going to say is well it's sort
Speaker:Track 1: of tendential to that so what i was going to say was that you were saying bill
Speaker:Track 1: like how the there's all this gratuitous there's sex and nudity and all of the
Speaker:Track 1: dancing and and all this film and like why do it you know what's the kind of
Speaker:Track 1: maybe the point of it and i think to me the point is that typically when you
Speaker:Track 1: see movies about Las Vegas. I think of movies.
Speaker:Track 2: I'll give you that.
Speaker:Track 3: Casino.
Speaker:Track 1: Casino. That's exactly where I was going to go for. You see the violence on the other side.
Speaker:Track 1: You see the violence of the people that own the casinos and what it takes to
Speaker:Track 1: continue to prey on rich people, the people that are trying to get in their
Speaker:Track 1: way to take away their casino, all of the wealthy capitalists at the top.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, you do see a little bit of that with the people who own and
Speaker:Track 1: run the show but you don't really see the tippity
Speaker:Track 1: top and so i think this is i think i said before the underbelly of what's going
Speaker:Track 1: on vegas but you never see and i think that's what verhoeven was trying to show
Speaker:Track 1: us that you don't get and it's very easily easy to see it and say like man this
Speaker:Track 1: is too much but i think it's enough you're right you're.
Speaker:Track 2: Right you are you are 100% correct
Speaker:Track 2: you are absolutely correct that is that is that is a valid point and.
Speaker:Track 1: I see what you're saying i understand i totally understand
Speaker:Track 1: it's like gratuitous in some you know at
Speaker:Track 1: moments but you know especially the way that the
Speaker:Track 1: the runners of the show speak to the women when they're out like when nomi does
Speaker:Track 1: her audition and they're like they take off their tops and they're like critiquing
Speaker:Track 1: everything about these all you your nose looks good but your ears yeah like
Speaker:Track 1: you need to fix those ears and
Speaker:Track 1: you know the people just sort of walk away and it's just cruelty on top.
Speaker:Track 2: Here was my, this is what my issue with it was.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't know anything about Vegas.
Speaker:Track 2: So like, to me, I'm like, the way it's presented is presented so over the top
Speaker:Track 2: and presented is so gratuitous.
Speaker:Track 2: So like, is this satire of Vegas?
Speaker:Track 2: Or is this an honest condemnation of the reality of Vegas?
Speaker:Track 2: And without knowing those things, once I knew those things, once I was given
Speaker:Track 2: background information, then it read differently.
Speaker:Track 2: But not knowing that, it's lost on me.
Speaker:Track 2: As a person that lives on the East Coast, has never been to Vegas,
Speaker:Track 2: has no desire to go to Vegas, and is not in any way, shape, or form a part of
Speaker:Track 2: that world, that specific world of Vegas.
Speaker:Track 2: To me, when you present it that way, it comes off as you're making – there's no way.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't know what you're saying here because I can't tell because I live –,
Speaker:Track 2: You know, I have a completely different.
Speaker:Track 1: Do you think clearly that it could be both things that could be both an over the top satire.
Speaker:Track 3: But I was going to say that. Okay.
Speaker:Track 1: Sorry. Sorry. Damn it.
Speaker:Track 3: No, I know you said you read my mind.
Speaker:Track 1: Okay. I was.
Speaker:Track 3: No, you deserve the credit because you put the words to it. Yeah. I was going to say that.
Speaker:Track 3: Do you know what I think is so interesting? And this is the best part about
Speaker:Track 3: dissecting art, especially when we all do such different perspectives is both
Speaker:Track 3: things are true because they're true to somebody.
Speaker:Track 3: i actually would argue it wasn't satirical enough
Speaker:Track 3: in nature and i think you know what i mean like it is really over the top but
Speaker:Track 3: it's not over the top like in a way that um i don't know like to wong fu what
Speaker:Track 3: is that to wong fu with love or something i forget the title of that movie but
Speaker:Track 3: it's one of my favorites um i just always forget it because it's long even.
Speaker:Track 2: Even like thanks for everything.
Speaker:Track 3: Julian yes yes it is even.
Speaker:Track 1: Just going off of other films by verhoeven like Starship Troopers is like this fascist satire that.
Speaker:Track 3: Also people didn't get.
Speaker:Track 1: That's like my Roman Empire.
Speaker:Track 3: Satire is really hard for a big audience, I think, is the other thing,
Speaker:Track 3: too. Because what is satirical is different for every person, right?
Speaker:Track 2: Starship Troopers is baby step satire. That is not a failing of Verhoeven.
Speaker:Track 2: That is a complete and utter failure.
Speaker:Track 1: An education on the audience.
Speaker:Track 2: Indicator of how abysmal media literacy is in America, or more to the point,
Speaker:Track 2: how successful the state has been at destroying media literacy and making it.
Speaker:Track 2: So that the average viewer cannot recognize fascism.
Speaker:Track 3: Very fair.
Speaker:Track 2: Because Starship Troopers, I'm sorry, man.
Speaker:Track 1: I know. But it is true.
Speaker:Track 3: People don't get irony. And they don't get satire.
Speaker:Track 3: No. Like most people are not looking for that unless they're explicitly told to, I feel like.
Speaker:Track 2: There is a child in a military uniform saying, I'm doing my part.
Speaker:Track 2: it doesn't get it's barely.
Speaker:Track 3: Satire i know i i got you i got you.
Speaker:Track 1: So slightly shifting like the like the a question that i'm thinking of is so
Speaker:Track 1: i saw i was reading some articles and what people said sort of about the movie
Speaker:Track 1: and one of the things i saw was that despite the fact that the movie is,
Speaker:Track 1: nudity and the show which probably you
Speaker:Track 1: know it gets a large audience you know men and women but might be perceived
Speaker:Track 1: as sort of like the male gaze what i also saw was some people saying that the
Speaker:Track 1: film is actually for more of like for the female gaze and i don't know that
Speaker:Track 1: i'm nothing that i disagree but i don't know what's that whether.
Speaker:Track 2: You're equipped to make.
Speaker:Track 1: That yeah so yeah that's exactly right and so i's funny i and the reason i like
Speaker:Track 1: one of the scenes in particular Well, every time that Gina Grishon's character,
Speaker:Track 1: when she first meets Nomi,
Speaker:Track 1: and they see each other several other times, like in the club when they go to
Speaker:Track 1: see her, and then she forces her, it's Zach, you know, not her boyfriend,
Speaker:Track 1: like her friend or whatever,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, to business partner to then get a lap dance from her.
Speaker:Track 1: That lap dance was not for him. That lap dance was for Gina Grishon's character.
Speaker:Track 1: and so that was that's like a scene that they point to as sort of like this
Speaker:Track 1: is this female gaze and also sort of this unspoken maybe love that she has for
Speaker:Track 1: Nomi that she can't express in any real way what.
Speaker:Track 2: About the relationship between Nomi and Molly which like there is a lot,
Speaker:Track 2: There was a lot of romantic sexual tension between them.
Speaker:Track 1: There was.
Speaker:Track 2: Earnest romantic tension between them. That is one thing about this movie.
Speaker:Track 2: And tell me if I'm wrong. But I found it incredibly, not progressive for the time,
Speaker:Track 2: but egalitarian in terms of the way in which it presented the notion of romanticism.
Speaker:Track 2: and sexual intimacy it did it did not draw lines between genders like you know
Speaker:Track 2: people are people and they love each other.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah to.
Speaker:Track 2: Me the way it read it felt so non-judgmental in terms of anything like that.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah that's my favorite parts of it because everyone everyone is equal just
Speaker:Track 3: like you're saying not only in their sexuality and their feelings towards one
Speaker:Track 3: another but also the negative actions they take against one another you know what do you think i.
Speaker:Track 1: See your pensive look well i was gonna i mean that's that's
Speaker:Track 1: true because the like the way that the actions that know
Speaker:Track 1: me and crystal take towards each other you would
Speaker:Track 1: think i mean they they do say like in several times that they hate each other
Speaker:Track 1: but then there's moments when they like when they're having you know having
Speaker:Track 1: lunch and other times where you also can see this sexual tension that's unfulfilled
Speaker:Track 1: from either of them where they both want to sort of they want something from
Speaker:Track 1: each other but neither of them is willing to say it.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, most of their relationship is subtext.
Speaker:Track 1: Yes.
Speaker:Track 3: Even the overt parts, right? I think my favorite conversation between them is
Speaker:Track 3: towards the middle when they're going out to eat together, they're getting lunch,
Speaker:Track 3: and Crystal is telling Nomi, you're already a whore.
Speaker:Track 3: And Nomi's like, no, I'm not. I'll never be you. And then, of course,
Speaker:Track 3: she literally becomes Crystal. But-
Speaker:Track 3: They have such a very interesting relationship, and there's so much hate,
Speaker:Track 3: but they're so jealous of each other.
Speaker:Track 3: They literally want to become one another.
Speaker:Track 3: Crystal wants what Nomi has, and Nomi wants what Crystal has.
Speaker:Track 3: But not in a way that's usual, where it's like, these are women and they hate
Speaker:Track 3: each other because one's higher than the other, and now they've got to fight
Speaker:Track 3: it out. You know? It is layered.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. You know, I never considered that Crystal wants what Nomi has.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh, yes. She's aging out.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. But when you say she wants what she has, it's sort of just like to be
Speaker:Track 1: out of the spotlight or to maybe
Speaker:Track 1: have, just to kind of live her life in a normal way. She wants her redo.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. She wants her vitality. She wants her youth.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. No, yeah. That's, I see that.
Speaker:Track 2: It's not to like, I feel like saying she wants what she has,
Speaker:Track 2: it's like a weird parsing, but like it's you know it's like she's losing you
Speaker:Track 2: know she's losing something and know me it's not so much that crystal wants what,
Speaker:Track 2: what Nomi has so much as Nomi has what Crystal wants. Does that make sense?
Speaker:Track 1: It's like the plot, have you seen, both of you seen The Substance?
Speaker:Track 1: Yes. Sort of like Demi Moore sort of wants to have the, you know,
Speaker:Track 1: the young body and the young, you know, life that she's, you know,
Speaker:Track 1: she may be seeing the ring on the wall that they're gonna,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, they keep promoting Nomi because of Crystal, but at the same time,
Speaker:Track 1: the people who run these shows realize like, oh, this woman,
Speaker:Track 1: she's gonna be 30 or whatever.
Speaker:Track 1: We've got to get her out of here. how old she is yeah you know i don't know how.
Speaker:Track 2: She's probably 25 something like that is a wild like every time i learn about
Speaker:Track 2: how like how every time i see anything involving like any like any dancers and
Speaker:Track 2: stuff and they're like yeah or like athletes too you know yeah models they're
Speaker:Track 2: like yeah models and it's like jesus christ that's.
Speaker:Track 1: Actually older than i thought.
Speaker:Track 3: There you go.
Speaker:Track 2: It really does like there is so much of
Speaker:Track 2: it that is just about like you said before lilia
Speaker:Track 2: how like everyone is just they're just preying on
Speaker:Track 2: each other and it's just an entire and
Speaker:Track 2: also like the the idea and i
Speaker:Track 2: think that this is an interesting thing how
Speaker:Track 2: you said about like oh you know like i'll never be you i'm not
Speaker:Track 2: a whore um and i
Speaker:Track 2: think that's a really interesting um when
Speaker:Track 2: you look at it from the perspective of the the argument that
Speaker:Track 2: we've we've all seen the discourse about online
Speaker:Track 2: especially about you know sex work
Speaker:Track 2: is work yes and the way in which
Speaker:Track 2: people weaponize um sex
Speaker:Track 2: work and how they misunderstand it and miss appropriate it and and you know
Speaker:Track 2: abuse the whole thing you know and it really like to me like that it speaks
Speaker:Track 2: to like the way so many people who are like you know like sex worker exclusionary people,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, like leftists who deny the validity and, you know.
Speaker:Track 2: People who talk, it's like, and they react so Vita, like, I'll never be you.
Speaker:Track 2: And it's like, you are selling your body.
Speaker:Track 2: Like what you do not understand, like you are deliberately, and you are coming
Speaker:Track 2: at this from an angle of hostility and aggression because it makes you angry
Speaker:Track 2: and it offends your sensibilities and it makes you uncomfortable.
Speaker:Track 2: But the fact of the matter is, is that you are
Speaker:Track 2: also selling your body in a different way and all
Speaker:Track 2: they are asking for is that they be acknowledged
Speaker:Track 2: in the same way and you are denying that yeah too much it's go ahead sorry and
Speaker:Track 2: it's just like the way she responds it's like from us from a marxist perspective
Speaker:Track 2: it is so subtextual like you know to like to like see it from that angle yeah and.
Speaker:Track 3: Of course you find out later on in the movie which was like inevitable that
Speaker:Track 3: she did that growing up to survive. And she was a street sex worker and had
Speaker:Track 3: no other choice and was a survival sex worker.
Speaker:Track 3: And yeah, well, that was the other reason I was so excited to watch it because
Speaker:Track 3: Crystal's response is perfect, which is like, you already are a whore.
Speaker:Track 3: You already have sold out.
Speaker:Track 3: You don't have a choice. And I'm using whore to quote them. I don't generally
Speaker:Track 3: use that word, but the visceralness is like purposeful, right?
Speaker:Track 3: Because what makes them different they're not different and that's okay there's
Speaker:Track 3: nothing wrong with that yeah i.
Speaker:Track 1: Think a lot of the recent sort of uh positive not press but positive reviews
Speaker:Track 1: and people kind of reassessing the movie is how well it depicts the nature of
Speaker:Track 1: sex work because i think you're saying at the beginning like most movies don't show it,
Speaker:Track 1: in this way at all you know i think no the only
Speaker:Track 1: other movie actually i was thinking about which came out the same year
Speaker:Track 1: as this is leaving las vegas where they kind
Speaker:Track 1: of show in a in a similar way but
Speaker:Track 1: through you know also the eyes of nicholas cage
Speaker:Track 1: who's also uh the the drunkest most alcoholic person
Speaker:Track 1: in the history of movies if you've seen that he's just it's crazy but you don't
Speaker:Track 1: usually get to see that shown in really any movies and i think for people in
Speaker:Track 1: 1995 they were just could not handle that they could not handle this story let's.
Speaker:Track 2: Look at it from the perspective of what's happened like in the 90s like i mean
Speaker:Track 2: they were shaming monica lewinski.
Speaker:Track 1: Like to their last breath exactly they could not.
Speaker:Track 2: Handle anything there was no way like like you said before lily like as a cult
Speaker:Track 2: classic like this seeing this divorce of that time like it changes the perspective completely.
Speaker:Track 2: I have, like, there are things that I do not, that I did not particularly enjoy
Speaker:Track 2: about this movie, but, like, it is a valid and important, it has a lot of important
Speaker:Track 2: things to say, and, like, it really is,
Speaker:Track 2: When you really think about the time that it came out, it is not shocking that it failed.
Speaker:Track 3: No, not at all.
Speaker:Track 1: One of the reviews I saw said that the movie needed more humor.
Speaker:Track 1: And the only joke that they have that they use is sort of when Nomi doesn't
Speaker:Track 1: know how Versace is pronounced.
Speaker:Track 3: Versace.
Speaker:Track 1: Versace.
Speaker:Track 2: Which I think is really funny because they clearly draw comparisons between
Speaker:Track 2: Crystal and Crystal, but they don't say Crystal correct either.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, they clearly, they're saying she's named after the shit.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh yeah, she's like, oh, this is why I chose my name.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, but they're not saying that right.
Speaker:Track 3: I think honestly though, Kyle McLaughlin's character, his entire character is funny.
Speaker:Track 3: Like, I think he's fine. Like, that works for me. He was such a dork.
Speaker:Track 1: He works perfectly as sort of the sleazy executive that has,
Speaker:Track 1: like he's driving like a Lamborghini or Ferrari or something.
Speaker:Track 1: He's got a massive house, this gigantic pool, and he has what he wants and really
Speaker:Track 1: just all, he's also kind of doing the same thing.
Speaker:Track 1: He's sort of trading in, you know, Crystal for like the newer,
Speaker:Track 1: younger model, literally, you know, and I think he also said when she goes to
Speaker:Track 1: her house the first time when Nomi goes there, when he opens the champagne, doesn't he have to go?
Speaker:Track 1: actually make that joke too bill like he says oh yeah i like crystal crystal
Speaker:Track 1: you know the champagne and yes he's he was great okay too he.
Speaker:Track 3: Was so good and his hair was so good his little bang.
Speaker:Track 2: His hair was yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: I saw someone say that the movie is somehow in the twin peaks universe where
Speaker:Track 1: like this is like the alternate version of that's cute i mean probably now this is a joke.
Speaker:Track 2: Hypothetically this is this is what okay i want to know especially like i your
Speaker:Track 2: thoughts both of your thoughts on specifically the characters of henrietta and al right.
Speaker:Track 1: We don't get.
Speaker:Track 3: Enough of them.
Speaker:Track 1: You think the The woman at the strip club and then the boss of the strip club.
Speaker:Track 2: The boss, right? Which at first, he comes off as a complete and utter scumbag.
Speaker:Track 2: But when he visits her, after she has gone and she is now performing at the
Speaker:Track 2: other, at Stardust. At Stardust, right?
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, he's sweet to her.
Speaker:Track 3: Very.
Speaker:Track 2: Right.
Speaker:Track 1: He's proud.
Speaker:Track 2: Completely different perspective, but not just proud. He comes off,
Speaker:Track 2: I thought he came off almost as protective and afraid of what was going to happen.
Speaker:Track 3: Yes. Yes.
Speaker:Track 2: And I found that fascinating.
Speaker:Track 1: You go first of all, you say.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. It's very interesting because while working at the Cheetah,
Speaker:Track 3: of course, she's preyed upon, but she seems more in control there.
Speaker:Track 3: like everyone there they do look
Speaker:Track 3: out for one another even though eventually one of her co-workers that
Speaker:Track 3: she helped set up ends up getting with uh with james
Speaker:Track 3: is that his name yeah the yeah yeah but at the
Speaker:Track 3: same time like you know you're in this small strip club you're
Speaker:Track 3: all just trying to make it her like house mother
Speaker:Track 3: henrietta genuinely loves her and cares about her and al is creepy but i think
Speaker:Track 3: that there is a real difference when she's moving up in the ladder inevitably
Speaker:Track 3: incredibly the sacrifices grow larger and they all know that because they live
Speaker:Track 3: there and they've probably seen it happen is i guess the the implied thing right well.
Speaker:Track 1: I think the same i saw al when he's working i mean he's crude to them he's not
Speaker:Track 1: particularly nice but he is almost like i hate to say the term father figure
Speaker:Track 1: but in a way he is like a protector of them he protects them.
Speaker:Track 3: But in.
Speaker:Track 1: A way you could say maybe he's protecting them because it's his way for revenue.
Speaker:Track 1: It's his, you know, it's his workforce, but at the same time,
Speaker:Track 1: he does seem to genuinely, uh,
Speaker:Track 1: care about them and it's almost like she went from a small business where
Speaker:Track 1: they sort of are a quote-unquote family to this giant
Speaker:Track 1: corporation where there are a family in bigger air quotes you know or like they
Speaker:Track 1: care about this person and then it's just you you have no protection just a
Speaker:Track 1: way that hr doesn't care about you at your job they're protecting them al is
Speaker:Track 1: worried that she doesn't have anyone that looks out for her and she doesn't
Speaker:Track 1: like molly can't watch out for.
Speaker:Track 2: To me it felt very much like a class dynamic and very much in the perspective
Speaker:Track 2: of when she was at the cheetah, she was in,
Speaker:Track 2: she was participating in.
Speaker:Track 2: And she was a part of a community that was of the same class as her.
Speaker:Track 2: And everybody was on the same level.
Speaker:Track 2: Even Al, even as Al was like the owner and he was the boss, there was,
Speaker:Track 2: because they were of the same class, there was like an upper limit that he would even do.
Speaker:Track 2: Whereas when he saw her, when she left and she was just,
Speaker:Track 2: she was now putting herself in harm's way because she was putting herself amongst
Speaker:Track 2: people who don't have any lines they will not cause.
Speaker:Track 2: they have no limits and that
Speaker:Track 2: she is not seen in any way shape or
Speaker:Track 2: form as an equal amongst anybody that everybody
Speaker:Track 2: there on her level is a
Speaker:Track 2: victim but also has to like crabs
Speaker:Track 2: in a bucket and the only person outside
Speaker:Track 2: of that bucket is the person who's going to take you out and put you in
Speaker:Track 2: the pot that's it whereas like in the
Speaker:Track 2: cheetah you know it's like it felt very much like you know what in the cheetah
Speaker:Track 2: if she fought back there would be like a certain and it was she gave him shit
Speaker:Track 2: and she didn't show up one day she's late right she gave him shit she and he
Speaker:Track 2: gave her shit back but it was like almost like implied like.
Speaker:Track 2: You only go so far. You only do so much. You don't push another person down a flight of stairs.
Speaker:Track 3: And then have the person who injured your other dancer cover for you because you covered for her.
Speaker:Track 3: That was crazy.
Speaker:Track 2: No, you don't know what you're getting yourself into.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, you know what? I may be the boss here and we may not be rich,
Speaker:Track 2: but you know what? At least we're not fucking bourgeois.
Speaker:Track 2: At least we're not fucking scumbags. We are scumbags, but we're not that kind of scumbag.
Speaker:Track 2: We have limits. You know, it's like he, like the way he looked at it was very,
Speaker:Track 2: it came to me, it read to me very much like, you don't know what you got yourself
Speaker:Track 2: into. These people are dangerous.
Speaker:Track 2: They're dangerous in a whole other way. And it's because they don't see you.
Speaker:Track 2: But you know what? He might be a scumbag and he might be like,
Speaker:Track 2: like he still sees them as people.
Speaker:Track 2: And it's like, these people don't even see you as people. They're,
Speaker:Track 2: you're not even a person to them.
Speaker:Track 1: You're just a human. You're a, you're a, you're meat for the, for their show. what.
Speaker:Track 3: Do you think evan.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean i think that makes perfect sense and
Speaker:Track 1: to even top it off in in the in the like another
Speaker:Track 1: thing that happens while nomi is working there is
Speaker:Track 1: she gets sort of quote unquote selected or picked
Speaker:Track 1: by crystal to go to this what is it
Speaker:Track 1: a boat show and essentially be you know she's
Speaker:Track 1: basically going on has to be like a call girl for the
Speaker:Track 1: night or some you know rich businessman in
Speaker:Track 1: or whatever and she does get ends up getting saved because she's
Speaker:Track 1: a strong enough person where she was able to refuse which i think most of them
Speaker:Track 1: wouldn't be able to do it and maybe she's able to do that because of her her
Speaker:Track 1: past experience which we only know kind of a little bit about where she's you
Speaker:Track 1: know gone out of prison and you know been on the street and all of that so yeah yeah i i.
Speaker:Track 2: I thought that was such a, it was such a unexpected flip around.
Speaker:Track 1: What do you make of Nomi? Not Nomi. What do you make of Crystal being the one
Speaker:Track 1: that sort of sends her off to do this and completely knowing what was going to happen?
Speaker:Track 3: I think she's putting her in her place. And I think, um, cause Crystal does
Speaker:Track 3: that several times to her, uh, puts her back where she wants her to be.
Speaker:Track 3: You know, she can only get so close to the spotlight and then she has to rip
Speaker:Track 3: her back into, into reality.
Speaker:Track 3: But, uh, it's like a rite of passage. I mean, we can assume that Crystal's done
Speaker:Track 3: everything that Nomi's going through.
Speaker:Track 3: And so she doesn't want her to be allowed to skip ahead without being forced.
Speaker:Track 1: It's like hazing.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly.
Speaker:Track 2: Wait, you want your student loans forgiven? I had to pay them. Fuck you.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, no. No, you can't get anywhere without, like, you have to eat shit just like I did.
Speaker:Track 1: One of the things we didn't talk about, I mean, we talked about how Molly is
Speaker:Track 1: sort of the nicest person through this.
Speaker:Track 1: but unfortunately it doesn't she
Speaker:Track 1: gets we don't need to describe that i mean if you see if you
Speaker:Track 1: if you do watch this movie especially the nc 17 version
Speaker:Track 1: there's definitely fucking it's disgusting there's some disgusting you know
Speaker:Track 1: definitely um trigger warning for anyone to watch it just in general i don't
Speaker:Track 1: think we've touched maybe i'll add that at the beginning too although we haven't
Speaker:Track 1: gone to in detail but one thing that we that that brings that class thing in
Speaker:Track 1: further is that We don't really,
Speaker:Track 1: we see Crystal as sort of a celebrity locally, like in Vegas within the show,
Speaker:Track 1: and they sort of have local media covering her.
Speaker:Track 1: But then we see sort of the sort of a big musician that Molly is a fan of comes
Speaker:Track 1: to town and through this network of the sort of upper class bourgeois capitalist
Speaker:Track 1: casino, she's able to meet him.
Speaker:Track 1: And I think a lot of people criticize this part of the movie,
Speaker:Track 1: and it is terrible to watch, but I think it's important only because it shows...
Speaker:Track 1: many people have to go through and have experience to try and make it in vegas
Speaker:Track 1: or in hollywood and i don't know do.
Speaker:Track 3: You think molly being the one that was assaulted was
Speaker:Track 3: uh did he know what he was doing or was that also supposed to be satire and
Speaker:Track 3: irony because of course she's like the best friend and she happens to be black
Speaker:Track 3: and then she has to literally suffer at every single point in the story like
Speaker:Track 3: it does the director realize what he's doing i'm curious what you guys think i.
Speaker:Track 1: I would actually probably say that that's it's kind of messed up in that to
Speaker:Track 1: make her a person of color and then experience the worst of anyone in the movie
Speaker:Track 1: it probably you i would argue that's not satire or if it is it's bad satire and it's i.
Speaker:Track 2: Don't think it's satire.
Speaker:Track 1: No i know i know i mean.
Speaker:Track 3: Which makes it even worse right but that's the that's what you get with The
Speaker:Track 3: 30-year-old movie, I guess. I don't know.
Speaker:Track 2: Well, I don't think it's satire. I
Speaker:Track 2: think he was being honest and he was showing the actual – I think the people
Speaker:Track 2: that complain that that was too much are being too precious about their own
Speaker:Track 2: feelings and they're being disingenuous about the reality of things. Because you know what?
Speaker:Track 2: I don't know that, like, you know, I don't know what happens in Vegas.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't know what happens you know in like you know LA or anything like that
Speaker:Track 2: in terms of like you know like the shows and all this shit like I don't know
Speaker:Track 2: any of that but you know what I do know I do know that black women in America,
Speaker:Track 2: are one of the most commonly subjected, you know, groups.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, to violence.
Speaker:Track 2: One of the groups most commonly subjected to sexual violence. I do know that.
Speaker:Track 2: And then if you're going to tell me that like, oh, he shouldn't have showed
Speaker:Track 2: that, you know what that tells me?
Speaker:Track 2: You don't want to see because you don't want to confront that reality.
Speaker:Track 2: And that's the reality of the situation. And I don't think we need to,
Speaker:Track 2: this is like how I don't believe in, you know, you know, like posting stories that trigger warnings.
Speaker:Track 2: listen there's a fucking genocide going
Speaker:Track 2: on we got people fucking being murdered in the streets
Speaker:Track 2: by you know fucking you you you gotta
Speaker:Track 2: see some shit you gotta wake the fuck up you gotta grow up and
Speaker:Track 2: you know what if you can't this is a movie you
Speaker:Track 2: know you have a remove this is at least acknowledged as fiction and if you can't
Speaker:Track 2: handle that you're gonna have to start because this is what's happening to that
Speaker:Track 2: this is what's happening to real people in real time world yeah by people like that that.
Speaker:Track 3: You also praise and glorify and pedestal.
Speaker:Track 2: Exactly what.
Speaker:Track 3: Do you think evan.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah i mean i mean when i said that it was like good that he included them i
Speaker:Track 1: don't maybe that came off as that maybe i didn't want to come off in the same
Speaker:Track 1: like i'm glad that they put this you know horrific.
Speaker:Track 2: Thing in but i don't think anyone thought you meant that i know i.
Speaker:Track 1: Know but i'm just gonna say you're just being careful and appreciative it's
Speaker:Track 1: okay yeah but i i i I'm sort of torn because in a way, the way that Verhoeven
Speaker:Track 1: is including the scene is
Speaker:Track 1: may show some level of, you know, not understanding.
Speaker:Track 1: But at the same time, maybe, I don't know what his thought process,
Speaker:Track 1: he hasn't really mentioned or talked about that specifically,
Speaker:Track 1: is that he's, you know, again, that black women are most likely to experience sexual violence.
Speaker:Track 1: Okay, well, if I have that happen in this movie, I'm showing you what the reality is.
Speaker:Track 1: And you're showing also, when nobody goes back and just beats the absolute shit
Speaker:Track 1: out of him, like she does her nails to like claws, which is fucking great.
Speaker:Track 3: I loved watching that what's.
Speaker:Track 1: Great what's unfortunate is that's that's sort of like the fiction in a way.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah usually these men do not.
Speaker:Track 1: Get what's their what they deserve for doing those kind of things.
Speaker:Track 3: This is uh what is this 20 25 years before the me too movement and now we're
Speaker:Track 3: like in a quote-unquote post me too world which doesn't really mean anything
Speaker:Track 3: right like post we buried it yeah we're over that now we canceled cancel culture yes we covered.
Speaker:Track 2: It up we we're.
Speaker:Track 3: Past it we covered it up okay guys we had our time
Speaker:Track 3: like okay move on so it's interesting like
Speaker:Track 3: um yeah so often the sexual violence that women and especially um women of the
Speaker:Track 3: global majority face you don't you don't get a warning they aren't a character
Speaker:Track 3: that gets any time and then people watch it and they move on or they watch it
Speaker:Track 3: and just like you said, they're like, was this really necessary?
Speaker:Track 3: Did I really just see this in my showgirls movie? Yeah. Did I have to see that?
Speaker:Track 2: The fact that she...
Speaker:Track 2: The fact that she had that revenge moment, that took me out of it more than anything else.
Speaker:Track 2: I was just like, so what? You threatened this rich man and then left?
Speaker:Track 2: First of all, even if this happened in real life, you've done nothing to help anybody.
Speaker:Track 2: You've actually made things worse, number one.
Speaker:Track 2: because like you you didn't if she
Speaker:Track 2: killed him kudos good job but she didn't she you know i mean like maybe like
Speaker:Track 2: you showed up you roughed him up and then you left you literally you left you
Speaker:Track 2: left and you left the person who was victimized by him behind and.
Speaker:Track 3: Also she's the reason that molly was assaulted.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Like tangentially like she forced her she pressured her to come to the party
Speaker:Track 3: molly was like i don't want to go she's like please please molly please and
Speaker:Track 3: then she came and then she she left her.
Speaker:Track 2: You know left her twice everything yeah everything about that like that was
Speaker:Track 2: the in my opinion like the worst part and like the the biggest failing of the
Speaker:Track 2: movie to me interesting was the fact that she did that and then fucked off i was like if.
Speaker:Track 3: You were to have been able to rewrite what occurs after molly's assault what
Speaker:Track 3: is your ideal ideal scene post that.
Speaker:Track 2: She kills him.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah and goes to prison or gets caught or.
Speaker:Track 3: Runs away again.
Speaker:Track 2: That's it like he actually like because all she did was actually open the door
Speaker:Track 2: or leave the door open for repercussions against molly.
Speaker:Track 1: I disagree with you bill because while i don't agree with what her behavior
Speaker:Track 1: is that she ends up leaving.
Speaker:Track 1: She's going to Hollywood to
Speaker:Track 1: Los Angeles to try and make herself a star there. I think it's the perfect,
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, especially the way that they bookend the movie where she's getting a
Speaker:Track 1: ride from a hitchhiker and she gets a ride from the same hitchhiker and pulls
Speaker:Track 1: out her, you know, her switchblade to, you know, get her stuff back.
Speaker:Track 1: It feels exactly what her character would do is that she got to the top and
Speaker:Track 1: now she has the buzz from that and then now she can...
Speaker:Track 1: Take what she's done and what she's learned and what she can do to Hollywood
Speaker:Track 1: to try to become, you know, an actor and make it in Hollywood.
Speaker:Track 1: So it feels perfect for her. And you also point out, Bill, at the beginning,
Speaker:Track 1: she's not particularly nice to Molly at the beginning.
Speaker:Track 1: You know, she's offering her help and she's not really kind to her.
Speaker:Track 1: And while she feels bad, I mean, I don't.
Speaker:Track 2: It just made me angry.
Speaker:Track 3: I think it's selfish. Yeah, I don't think that.
Speaker:Track 2: It just pissed me off. It just pissed me off.
Speaker:Track 1: Sure, sure. like.
Speaker:Track 2: It just made me angry i was like what the fuck like that's so like.
Speaker:Track 1: Well what about this is just like.
Speaker:Track 2: It's the the capper on like you as a shitty person.
Speaker:Track 1: Well what do you think lily about so after at the same time both molly and crystal
Speaker:Track 1: are in the hospital because at this also same moment she had pushed crystal
Speaker:Track 1: down the stairs yes and took over her position as the lead of the show where
Speaker:Track 1: she's now at the quote-unquote top,
Speaker:Track 1: like the top level she could get to in Vegas as, you know, this kind of person.
Speaker:Track 1: And then when she goes to visit Crystal in the hospital, Crystal is, like, super nice to her.
Speaker:Track 1: She's sort of thankful in a way. She's, you know, my career's getting close
Speaker:Track 1: to the end. You know, you did me a favor. I think she even says you did me a favor.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, she did you a favor.
Speaker:Track 1: So what do you, I mean, we sort of talked about that earlier in their sort of
Speaker:Track 1: their unspoken relationship, but I feel like this is the only time where it's
Speaker:Track 1: sort of actually spoken more.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. What do I think about it? I think it's so perfect, and I wouldn't want it any differently.
Speaker:Track 3: The way that they interact with each other towards the end.
Speaker:Track 3: Because, in a way, if Crystal doesn't get this dramatic out,
Speaker:Track 3: this dramatic ending, then she's just fading into irrelevance.
Speaker:Track 3: And she kind of has to face that, too. And she's so jaded. Like,
Speaker:Track 3: Crystal has become so jaded in all of this.
Speaker:Track 3: I'm happy for her. If she's happy, I'm happy.
Speaker:Track 1: In some ways, I almost would think that if Crystal had remained in the show,
Speaker:Track 1: almost her ending could have been worse, dare I say?
Speaker:Track 1: Something they could have done, you know, gotten rid of her.
Speaker:Track 1: I'm not saying they're going to kill her. I mean, maybe. I don't know. Who knows? It's Vegas.
Speaker:Track 3: Who knows what they can do?
Speaker:Track 1: But I don't know. it's like she somehow she gets her out she also says that
Speaker:Track 1: her lawyers got a big sell she got a big settlement from her lawyers she's probably
Speaker:Track 1: set for life maybe that's a great.
Speaker:Track 3: Way to go what do you think bill.
Speaker:Track 2: I think and this is funny because it actually takes takes me back to a conversation
Speaker:Track 2: evan and i were having okay okay about how,
Speaker:Track 2: In America, under a capitalist system, people are basically,
Speaker:Track 2: and like we didn't go in depth, but we were talking about, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: basically it's like people basically live in survival mode constantly.
Speaker:Track 3: Yep.
Speaker:Track 2: The vast majority of people live in survival mode. You know,
Speaker:Track 2: I often say that like, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: you can't expect a lot of, you can't expect the average working class person
Speaker:Track 2: in America to have class consciousness when they spend 80 hours a week working,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, and commuting.
Speaker:Track 2: and it's like where do they where would you eat like all you do and to me like crystal,
Speaker:Track 2: like is in a ways like indicative
Speaker:Track 2: of it's like because she's like many of she's in survival mode yeah and all
Speaker:Track 2: you have time to do is react how do i react to this problem i react to this
Speaker:Track 2: i react to that i i you know how i have a problem react to it i have a problem
Speaker:Track 2: react to it how do i solve this so I can get to the next thing?
Speaker:Track 2: How can I get to the next thing so I can make it to the next thing,
Speaker:Track 2: even at that point of quote unquote wealth?
Speaker:Track 3: Yes, because she's still a victim and still oppressed the entire time. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Right. To go back to a common misconception of people who do not understand class,
Speaker:Track 2: it doesn't matter how much money you
Speaker:Track 2: have if you are selling your labor and you're selling your body and to go back
Speaker:Track 2: again to the fact that like as a person that does a physical job i work a job
Speaker:Track 2: that if i you know if my body breaks in a certain way i can't do my job.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah you know.
Speaker:Track 2: Like and it's like,
Speaker:Track 2: People look at dancers and actors, they look at them like, oh,
Speaker:Track 2: and athletes, and you're like, oh, well, they're rich.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like, yeah, well, but they're selling their body.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, they have a time limit.
Speaker:Track 2: They have a time limit. They break, they're fucking.
Speaker:Track 1: They're fucked. NFL players' average career is about three years.
Speaker:Track 2: Right.
Speaker:Track 3: Isn't that insane?
Speaker:Track 1: And most of them aren't rich.
Speaker:Track 2: Actually. The average NFL player's career should be zero years because the NFL shouldn't exist.
Speaker:Track 3: No, it should not.
Speaker:Track 2: And football should not fucking exist. I hate football.
Speaker:Track 3: I get it.
Speaker:Track 2: She has been given something by this.
Speaker:Track 2: She has been given the privilege of not having to react at this point.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: She has been given the privilege to actually look ahead beyond the immediate thing.
Speaker:Track 2: And she's been given some kind of cushion. At the expense of her body,
Speaker:Track 2: it really is the kind of thing.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like, you know, people don't have the opportunity because we are constantly
Speaker:Track 2: reacting to things. How do we get to the next thing?
Speaker:Track 3: I like that. Wondrously put.
Speaker:Track 1: I guess I sort of mentioned sort of like the book ending of it where,
Speaker:Track 1: or sort of the, you know, it's kind of a full cycle where she's hitchhiking
Speaker:Track 1: in, that she's hitchhiking out to go to it.
Speaker:Track 1: And that's again where, you know, I go back to the sort of very simple analysis
Speaker:Track 1: of Nomi being this sort of version of capitalist,
Speaker:Track 1: capitalism, trying to sell their labor or sell their labor as an individualistic kind of pursuit.
Speaker:Track 1: and it's sort of a very it's like slightly satisfying I feel like them taking,
Speaker:Track 1: her being hitchhiking with the same guy was sort of maybe a way to make you
Speaker:Track 1: briefly forget that she has abandoned her friend who did so much for her I'm
Speaker:Track 1: trying to think of what I'm trying to say is that,
Speaker:Track 1: And it's kind of what you would expect to have happen, even if it's maybe both
Speaker:Track 1: somewhat satisfying and also deeply unsatisfying.
Speaker:Track 1: And just, yeah, I don't know. I kind of lost my job.
Speaker:Track 2: I have a hot take on the truck guy.
Speaker:Track 1: Please.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't think he stole our suitcase. I think she wandered off and he was like,
Speaker:Track 2: I'm not waiting any longer.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh, that's how I took it. She was going for a long time in the casino.
Speaker:Track 3: He was like, meet me back here in one hour.
Speaker:Track 3: And then she made all her money and then lost all her money by the time that
Speaker:Track 3: she realized that he was gone.
Speaker:Track 2: And then blamed it on him. Right. And then blamed it on him.
Speaker:Track 2: I was like, bitch, you wandered off.
Speaker:Track 1: She won a bunch of money. She's like, ooh, look, I won money.
Speaker:Track 1: And then someone's like, oh, how about you bet more on this other machine? Then it's all gone.
Speaker:Track 3: Everything.
Speaker:Track 1: It's also just a perfect synopsis of what happens to probably 98% of people
Speaker:Track 1: who go to 99.5. Sorry. What?
Speaker:Track 2: And she blamed it on him. like she
Speaker:Track 2: consistently like people in this like blames her like she blamed her problems
Speaker:Track 2: on this other guy instead of like in any way shape I'm like yeah like you you
Speaker:Track 2: wandered off like hours like what did you think he was gonna do he's a stranger
Speaker:Track 2: and is already given like it's like,
Speaker:Track 2: There is a certain, there is a certain analysis of Nomi, which is that like,
Speaker:Track 2: she does not have class solidarity.
Speaker:Track 2: And that is one of her biggest problems.
Speaker:Track 2: That is one of her biggest problems. She does not have class solidarity.
Speaker:Track 2: She does not have consideration for other people.
Speaker:Track 1: You're like, drop that as we're talking about the ending. But no, I, that's, um,
Speaker:Track 1: that's super, I mean, that sort of goes back to maybe what we're all talking
Speaker:Track 1: about at the beginning where, well, aside from the two different,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, she, or maybe, I don't know who one of us, one of us said how she's,
Speaker:Track 1: people are trying to help her, but she doesn't care.
Speaker:Track 1: She wants to do it on her own because that's sort of the individualistic.
Speaker:Track 1: I think that's the same, that's what the capitalist class wants us not to have. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Wants us to step on each other, not trust anyone, do everything for ourselves,
Speaker:Track 1: because they can't allow us to have class consciousness.
Speaker:Track 1: And they succeed by taking everything from her.
Speaker:Track 1: You know, she came from the street and yet still maybe reasonably doesn't trust people.
Speaker:Track 1: still it's just i don't know.
Speaker:Track 2: Which is why like when when al
Speaker:Track 2: did i forget his name already al right yeah you got
Speaker:Track 2: it yeah from cheetah alan henry had to show up
Speaker:Track 2: like that's what that felt it's like she sold out yeah you sold out like you
Speaker:Track 2: sold out you betrayed your own people and you're going to get fucked because
Speaker:Track 2: of it because this is you know you either to go back to running man stay Stick with your people.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. And I mean, we see that almost immediately. The minute that she feels
Speaker:Track 3: threatened by Crystal when Molly first introduces her, she can't handle herself.
Speaker:Track 3: But in the same way that Evan was saying, or that you were saying,
Speaker:Track 3: sorry, but Evan was agreeing with, we're always reacting.
Speaker:Track 3: Constant reaction. Nomi is clearly a very underdeveloped person,
Speaker:Track 3: deeply traumatized, very incapable of normal human interaction,
Speaker:Track 3: and she sows that. and it's both to her advantage and her her failure.
Speaker:Track 2: She struck me as arrested development and honestly at times like i'd like not super bright.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah well she's i think she's supposed to be very childlike.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah it's it was kind of like which is makes it
Speaker:Track 2: even creepier yes the whole thing it's
Speaker:Track 2: so especially in this time of epstein file disclosures just the constant preying
Speaker:Track 2: on innocence and and and children and she really is like she's not like you
Speaker:Track 2: said she's not well developed she's not developed she's not.
Speaker:Track 1: You said she was naive earlier but in some ways you would think that,
Speaker:Track 1: maybe you would think her experience as you know before she gets there and if
Speaker:Track 1: she's 23 in the movie as her actual age i don't know how that's maybe about
Speaker:Track 1: what she's supposed to be oh.
Speaker:Track 3: My god we're twins irl and in the movie cute.
Speaker:Track 1: But does i mean she's naive but she's also able very capable of sticking up
Speaker:Track 1: for herself but you still think because of her experience it made it so she's unable to really yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Earlier i had said that she was naive i said she was naive and then i think
Speaker:Track 3: i I clarified or qualified that because I didn't quite like the wording.
Speaker:Track 1: Okay. Okay. Sorry.
Speaker:Track 3: She seemingly, no, you're all good. Cause I, I also was like trying to find
Speaker:Track 3: my footing and how I felt about her.
Speaker:Track 3: She is naive in thinking that she can do it her way.
Speaker:Track 1: Yes.
Speaker:Track 3: And that she doesn't have to sacrifice anything. And
Speaker:Track 3: she goes from having to
Speaker:Track 3: do survival street work to
Speaker:Track 3: coming to this place where i i think that she assumes
Speaker:Track 3: if she can do everything well enough she won't have to um make the same sacrifices
Speaker:Track 3: that she has had to and then as she tries to reassert that over and over again
Speaker:Track 3: she is proven wrong time and again yeah um but seemingly does not want to admit
Speaker:Track 3: that to herself which is the naive part i think yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Right no yeah that that's yeah i read you did say that that makes a lot more
Speaker:Track 1: sense but also she presumably this is just sort of a like how could this have
Speaker:Track 1: happened she doesn't give them her real social security number how is she getting
Speaker:Track 1: paid from this corporation.
Speaker:Track 3: What is the time span of this movie is also a good question i'm so curious yeah
Speaker:Track 3: what that's a good right okay,
Speaker:Track 3: All right.
Speaker:Track 1: So here's three months. I don't know.
Speaker:Track 3: Get into it.
Speaker:Track 1: It's so hard. What do you say, Bill?
Speaker:Track 2: So before I'm trying to remember what it's called, that system is called something.
Speaker:Track 1: Oh, where they, where they actually check your history based on your social security.
Speaker:Track 2: So that system is called something. I can't remember what it's called.
Speaker:Track 2: So like when you go to a place and you get a job and you give them their social
Speaker:Track 2: security, they put it in like a computer, like it's like, Like one company has like a monopoly on it.
Speaker:Track 2: But I believe this is actually before that system was implemented.
Speaker:Track 2: So basically, if you gave a false social security number, there was a period
Speaker:Track 2: of time basically before like taxes.
Speaker:Track 2: And it's like before taxes came calling for the person paying that that would
Speaker:Track 2: be like checked, recorded, and then like gone through.
Speaker:Track 2: So like it is now like automated.
Speaker:Track 2: Like you have to give the social security and that social security number has
Speaker:Track 2: to be valid in some way for it to show up.
Speaker:Track 2: But like back in the day, unless they did an audit, it wouldn't come up.
Speaker:Track 2: Like it, unless they went, unless the IRS went through your books and like went
Speaker:Track 2: through all that shit, they wouldn't have found it out.
Speaker:Track 2: It's all on, you know, it was all like sent like in and like stuff like that.
Speaker:Track 2: I can't remember what the name of that goddamn company is.
Speaker:Track 3: It'll come to you right after.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. I've been self-employed for like fucking like 10 years.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't know. I haven't done that in a long time. I don't know.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: No, but that, yeah, I don't know. I was purely partly just saying that as more
Speaker:Track 1: of a joke, you know, the inconsistency of, you know, the fact that she's just
Speaker:Track 1: sort of lying on her form. Like, oh, like, do you have any family?
Speaker:Track 1: She's like, no, you know, whatever. I don't have this, uh.
Speaker:Track 1: I don't know. But Lily, any final thoughts on the film or anything you maybe didn't get to mention?
Speaker:Track 3: My final thoughts are that cult classics are some of the best movies to watch.
Speaker:Track 3: And I love them. And I mentioned To Wong Fu With Love earlier.
Speaker:Track 3: And that was the other movie that was in the back of my head this whole time.
Speaker:Track 3: And I think now more than ever, as we are becoming a more and more forcibly conservative country,
Speaker:Track 3: it's so lovely to be able to have this art to enjoy and to critique and have
Speaker:Track 3: such a good time chatting about.
Speaker:Track 3: I liked both of your guys' perspectives on it.
Speaker:Track 1: No thank you for uh for coming i really appreciate it
Speaker:Track 1: and i i would i would also agree completely with
Speaker:Track 1: the idea of just you know yes you can watch marvel slop
Speaker:Track 1: but you can also watch great movies that people
Speaker:Track 1: didn't appreciate and people forget about and you know that would be that would
Speaker:Track 1: actually be so we help we have leather box as a both as a podcast and as me
Speaker:Track 1: personally but a great list would be like putting together these underappreciated
Speaker:Track 1: you know uh cult classics that people should watch.
Speaker:Track 3: Go ahead, Bill.
Speaker:Track 2: Just remember my perspective on movies is we already have enough and we don't need to make more.
Speaker:Track 3: Hello.
Speaker:Track 2: We have plenty. You could just watch the ones that have already made.
Speaker:Track 2: We don't need to make more.
Speaker:Track 3: I like it.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, I know, Bill. That was your hot take. I mean.
Speaker:Track 3: I think, let me say this also, for my final wrap up, I think you guys are such
Speaker:Track 3: interesting hosts and I have not, I didn't get to meet your other host and maybe
Speaker:Track 3: one day I will if you have me back.
Speaker:Track 2: Absolutely. Bring you on for Julie Neumar.
Speaker:Track 3: I would love that. I would love that. But Evan, your takes are great because
Speaker:Track 3: you're trying to be nuanced and like come at it from every point of view.
Speaker:Track 3: And then Bill, you have so much passion. And you know what?
Speaker:Track 3: For like the average person, if they don't like a movie, it is very hard to
Speaker:Track 3: still be objective about it. But you did that. So, yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Thank you.
Speaker:Track 3: It was great.
Speaker:Track 1: I appreciate that. That's very nice to say. But I think, and Ward,
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, Ward sort of has, I'm trying to think of like how he then fits into
Speaker:Track 1: sort of his third, as the third sort of voice.
Speaker:Track 3: Right? Because you guys have to be different in order for it to kind of add like a lot of gumption.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: What do you think?
Speaker:Track 2: Ward has no compunction about just straight up tearing things down if he doesn't like it.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, that's definitely true. We generally, I mean, it is sometimes fun to do
Speaker:Track 1: a movie that everyone, you know, guests, hosts, all just like don't like and sort of tear it apart.
Speaker:Track 1: And that's fun. But it's also fun.
Speaker:Track 1: I think it's more interesting sometimes when there's different opinions where
Speaker:Track 1: someone likes it, someone doesn't like it or, you know, has that.
Speaker:Track 1: And it just both are very valid criticisms and critiques of art.
Speaker:Track 2: I was an English major. I mean, I didn't graduate college, but I was an English
Speaker:Track 2: major in college. So, you know, that's like that comes with being an English major.
Speaker:Track 3: Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker:Track 2: You just bullshit anything. you get to the end yeah you know I really appreciate the,
Speaker:Track 2: The, I mean, the totally, you know, like the different perspective that you
Speaker:Track 2: have on this kind of thing, especially, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: from, you know, it is, it is valuable to, you know, you have,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, perspective, but obviously Evan and I cannot have,
Speaker:Track 2: um, and you're like, you know, and.
Speaker:Track 2: I mean, in many ways, also, we're also just, Evan told me, he's like,
Speaker:Track 2: you're going to feel old, Bill. And I'm like, well, that's good.
Speaker:Track 2: I got good news for you. I always feel old.
Speaker:Track 2: It is definitely, it is a valuable, you know, plus you are an incredibly learned
Speaker:Track 2: and informed individual on theory and stuff like that.
Speaker:Track 3: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker:Track 2: You you are you are doing something valuable for the uh you know the online community and what you
Speaker:Track 2: know what you've done that warms my heart i definitely would like to you know
Speaker:Track 2: you definitely i mean i'm not the only way to make these calls but you know
Speaker:Track 2: it would definitely be great to have you back on to talk about you know these things.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah and the movie you just described before i've never seen tufong wub i'm.
Speaker:Track 3: Not kidding evan you're gonna i think you would really like it have you seen it i saw.
Speaker:Track 2: It yeah but like when it was like out.
Speaker:Track 3: A long.
Speaker:Track 1: Cast is insane i was just looking at it it's an insane cast absolutely insane so it's.
Speaker:Track 2: An incredible cast.
Speaker:Track 1: Same year i haven't seen it since like.
Speaker:Track 3: I was yeah i thought it was the same year.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah it was um.
Speaker:Track 3: Insane movie and also most not queer people have not seen it which makes it
Speaker:Track 3: so much better to get to share it with people.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah it's so good yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna add this to my watch list to watch
Speaker:Track 1: and then certainly we'll have you back or a different movie it doesn't have to be whatever,
Speaker:Track 1: the guest gets to usually choose I think that makes it more fun though sometimes
Speaker:Track 1: we do have people come on and we're like we're going to talk about this movie
Speaker:Track 1: that everyone hates come hate it I can appreciate.
Speaker:Track 3: That too I love to gossip.
Speaker:Track 1: But Lily thank you again for coming on Left with Projector and you can find
Speaker:Track 1: you we'll link to your profile on Instagram Thank you, thank you. In the show notes.
Speaker:Track 1: And we will catch you next time on Left of the Projector.
