Episode 260
Okja (2017) with Andorks Podcast
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Transcript
Rusteen: Do you do all the editing, Evan?
Speaker:evan: I do.
Speaker:Rusteen: God bless you.
Speaker:ward: Thank God for Evan.
Speaker:evan: We only do, like we record video, but we don't really post much video or if
Speaker:evan: ever anymore. I mean, maybe at some point in the future we might,
Speaker:evan: but it's easier just to edit audio versus doing the video too. So that's easier.
Speaker:Rusteen: Alex has decided to make it harder for himself by basically making little mini
Speaker:Rusteen: documentaries with each one of our clips.
Speaker:Rusteen: instead of just recording video of us talking.
Speaker:alex: Nobody wants to see our faces.
Speaker:Rusteen: I agree.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, I do. I actually like the idea of having, like, there's that,
Speaker:evan: you know, your voice, you know,
Speaker:evan: the people talking over montage and other things. Those are, I like that.
Speaker:alex: They take a little while sometimes when you want to be a little,
Speaker:alex: when you're playing Michael Moore clips from 2004 RNC, something's gone too far.
Speaker:ward: Which I was doing the other day. So.
Speaker:evan: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,
Speaker:evan: back again with another film discussion from the left. If you'd like to support
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Speaker:evan: Wherever you're listening, give us a rating and subscribe so you'll be notified
Speaker:evan: of our weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday. And now on to the show.
Speaker:evan: This week on Left of the Projector, we'll be tackling a Bong Joon-ho film,
Speaker:evan: specifically one that embarrassingly none of the hosts on the show saw until now. Wow.
Speaker:evan: So the one in question is Okja, released in 2017.
Speaker:evan: It has a lot of big names in here, including Tilla Swinton, Paul Dano,
Speaker:evan: Bayeon Hee Bong, Lily Collins, Yoon Jin Moon, Danielle Herschel,
Speaker:evan: Giancarlo Esposito, and Jake Gyllenhaal.
Speaker:evan: The film was not a box office success, but that's okay. We're here to discuss it anyway.
Speaker:evan: Our guests this week are the co-hosts of the podcast Andorks,
Speaker:evan: the podcast that breaks down Andor seven minutes at a time, Rustin and Alex.
Speaker:evan: Thank you both for being here today.
Speaker:alex: Thanks for having us.
Speaker:Rusteen: Thanks for having us.
Speaker:evan: Of course. And listeners of our show know that we're big Andor fans.
Speaker:evan: Obviously, you both are Andor fans. Do you want to tell everyone about where
Speaker:evan: they can just get more Andor content? Because we all want that.
Speaker:alex: It's called Wookieepedia.com.
Speaker:alex: Rusty, do you want to go ahead?
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah. Our show Andorx is all about diving through every single minute of the show Andorx.
Speaker:Rusteen: Because like the way it came out, I feel like we all talked about all of the big moments in the show.
Speaker:Rusteen: You know, your Gorman massacres, your Dr. Gorse.
Speaker:Rusteen: But there's so many smaller moments all throughout the show that really speak
Speaker:Rusteen: to this political moment and what we're going through every single day.
Speaker:Rusteen: And so our show takes every week we talk about seven minutes of the show and or.
Speaker:Rusteen: And you would think that after 50 episodes, we'd be tired of it.
Speaker:Rusteen: And yet we're still finding new things to get to talk about.
Speaker:Rusteen: So if you enjoyed your guys' coverage of Andor, come over to Andor's. The water's fine.
Speaker:evan: That's awesome.
Speaker:alex: Yeah, I mean, to paraphrase Nemec on the show, like there are just things constantly
Speaker:alex: happening in the real news every week, which is just fun to sort of go through
Speaker:alex: what's happening in the news and recontextualize it through what Andor is talking about and how much it
Speaker:alex: matches what's happening in the current day or how much it doesn't match and
Speaker:alex: sort of view that as a lens through what's happening,
Speaker:alex: in the news, which is, you know,
Speaker:alex: it makes it separate it from just, you know, let's talk about the show for an hour and a half.
Speaker:Rusteen: And the way we've like scheduled it out, we're going to have our final coverage
Speaker:Rusteen: of Rogue One drop on inauguration day of 2028.
Speaker:alex: Of Trump's third term.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yes, it'll either be the last day of Trump's second term or the first day of
Speaker:Rusteen: Trump's third term. And so the podcast will hopefully work as a kind of time
Speaker:Rusteen: capsule of this horrible moment in American history.
Speaker:evan: Yes, that is awesome. And so how did you... So we send our guests a list of films of...
Speaker:evan: a wide variety of like genres of movies and you picked a couple,
Speaker:evan: but then we, one of them was Okja.
Speaker:evan: Why did you choose it? Do you have any, you know, is it something you had,
Speaker:evan: you both seen this before? And unlike the three of us, we had never seen it.
Speaker:alex: I had seen it before, but this, this was a Rusty and pick. I think we,
Speaker:alex: we compiled a list and this was the Rusty and pick on the list.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah. I am Okja's like number one defender.
Speaker:Rusteen: Uh, I, I love Bong Joon-ho's films and I saw this film when,
Speaker:Rusteen: it first premiered on netflix you know you because you said it wasn't a box
Speaker:Rusteen: office smash but that's because it never got a box office unfortunately yeah.
Speaker:evan: Except for in i guess in south korea it got a little bit.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah and so.
Speaker:bill: Yeah like a little bit in south.
Speaker:Rusteen: Korea yeah i i mean my first bong joon ho was the host and so i really loved
Speaker:Rusteen: that film and then i caught snow piercer and dragged all my friends to the theater to go see it and so,
Speaker:Rusteen: as the press for like oakja started rolling up.
Speaker:Rusteen: I was fully on board from day one.
Speaker:Rusteen: And it's a weird movie.
Speaker:Rusteen: It kind of rubs some people the wrong way.
Speaker:Rusteen: I think especially when it first came out, people were a little less familiar
Speaker:Rusteen: with Korean cinema and Bong Joon-ho's juggling of tones. And so they watched
Speaker:Rusteen: this movie where a little girl runs around with her pet pig.
Speaker:Rusteen: And then also Jake Gyllenhaal is there like a sniveling little worm
Speaker:Rusteen: and they couldn't process what was happening and
Speaker:Rusteen: kind of like that simpsons joke of like i bring you love let's break its legs
Speaker:Rusteen: like i feel like some people reacted like that to okja and it just made me love
Speaker:Rusteen: it even more and so i'm so glad to get to you know force the three of you to watch it.
Speaker:alex: Are you talking about the movie disclosure.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yes exactly well.
Speaker:evan: And it's funny because i i don't want to speak for board and bill but i was
Speaker:evan: a big fan i've seen all of the other Bong Joon-ho movies, except I didn't,
Speaker:evan: I just, I want to see his first direct Barking Dogs and everybody,
Speaker:evan: that's now the only one I haven't seen.
Speaker:evan: And I'm always a huge fan. I saw Snowpiercer also. That was my first,
Speaker:evan: you know, and then I feel like people didn't even know about that when it came
Speaker:evan: out. And then Parasite came out, wins the Oscar.
Speaker:evan: All of a sudden, people are like, oh, you know, this guy, this guy can make good films.
Speaker:evan: And yeah, I was pleasantly surprised. And I cried my eyes out when I watched this movie.
Speaker:Rusteen: It's a real tearjerker. I got to go to a screening of it at the Academy Museum here in L.A.
Speaker:Rusteen: with Director Bong there. And just hearing the entire audience breaking out
Speaker:Rusteen: into sobs at the end of the movie made me really sad that this never got a real theatrical release.
Speaker:evan: What did you guys think, Bill Ward, of this for your first, as first viewers of it?
Speaker:ward: So, I mean, like, I never had a reason not to watch it, which is,
Speaker:ward: like, I don't have a valid reason that I never watched it. Like,
Speaker:ward: I'm a big Bong Joon-ho fan, like, seen almost every movie, seen several of them several times each.
Speaker:ward: But yeah, just never watched this, and I loved it. And yeah,
Speaker:ward: no, I didn't expect the pig movie to make me cry.
Speaker:bill: Yeah the same pretty much like the same it's like ward it's like i love baiji
Speaker:bill: and ho films like i seen you know almost all of them and i've seen several of them multiple times,
Speaker:bill: um and i just like never i don't know why i honestly all right honestly i think
Speaker:bill: it's because when it was a netflix release and it's just like it just like shows,
Speaker:bill: this is a this is a conversation to be had about not even from a leftist perspective but about media,
Speaker:bill: um in general and how like and movies and how like when things are released
Speaker:bill: on streaming services as um,
Speaker:bill: movies releases they don't feel the same and it doesn't have the same impact uh,
Speaker:bill: you know listen i don't want to give nicole kidman too much credit for her amc,
Speaker:bill: theater opening bullshit but you know uh,
Speaker:bill: i mean i think she's right to a certain degree or at least whoever wrote that
Speaker:bill: fucking spiel for amc theaters is correct and how dare you it's just kind of like
Speaker:bill: you know it just kind of like showed up on netflix and it's like oh yeah i mean
Speaker:bill: like if this is in the movie like i you know i'm like yeah it's it's it's sponsored
Speaker:bill: oh like oh yeah you know but it's like oh you just kind of put it on netflix
Speaker:bill: okay you know it's just like,
Speaker:bill: um i will admit i did not cry and i'm starting to feel like i might be a monster,
Speaker:bill: i i also did not cry on my rewatch.
Speaker:alex: You're not alone.
Speaker:bill: And i'd cry i cry at movies and like i honestly i think it's because evan evan
Speaker:bill: led me to believe that okay And spoilers, okay, for everyone out there,
Speaker:bill: Evan led me to believe from what he said that Oksha dies.
Speaker:evan: I did not.
Speaker:bill: Yes, you did. You said, this movie destroyed me, okay? I believe that is the phrase you used.
Speaker:alex: I need to be first. The Oksha in real life died.
Speaker:alex: But the story that says based off of it did die in real life.
Speaker:bill: I'm just like, I was expecting Jeff, and it didn't happen. And then,
Speaker:bill: you know, so I didn't cry.
Speaker:evan: It's okay.
Speaker:Rusteen: But, you know, there's ways to make you cry beyond death, right?
Speaker:Rusteen: It's all about Miha and Okja's connection, you know, and the way that the rest
Speaker:Rusteen: of the world doesn't see it. They don't believe in it.
Speaker:bill: To be fair, I did cry after the movie, but it was completely unrelated to the movie.
Speaker:bill: It was personal life things. It just kind of happened.
Speaker:ward: Oh, I thought you'd cry because Paul Dano got out of prison at the end.
Speaker:alex: Look at the real Jerry Adams-ish as he walked out of that prison. Yes.
Speaker:alex: But Paul Dano, famously.
Speaker:bill: According to Quentin Tarantino, a terrible actor.
Speaker:ward: I will say Paul Dano in a spy role, like trying to do spy antics at times is really funny.
Speaker:ward: Like seeing him change like outfits. It's like, dude, you're still Paul Dano.
Speaker:Rusteen: But he also looks like a little soft vegan, you know, like he is cosplaying as a secret agent.
Speaker:bill: What were you going to say? Rusty, what were you going to say?
Speaker:Rusteen: Alex was talking to you.
Speaker:alex: I was to say if I think to your point of this, this being a Netflix movie is
Speaker:alex: I think like 10 years ago, this movie feels already encased in amber politics
Speaker:alex: wise of like, this is a very distinct moment that is not the moment we're in anymore.
Speaker:alex: And I think like in 2017, Netflix releasing a movie like this was a big deal.
Speaker:alex: As opposed to now, I think I did this even get like the Lemley run, Racine, I doubt it.
Speaker:Rusteen: No.
Speaker:alex: Yeah, like now.
Speaker:Rusteen: It got a new Beverly run where they got like the 35 millimeter print, but that was it.
Speaker:alex: Yeah, and I think now this movie would have gotten a little bit more beef,
Speaker:alex: a little bit more beefier presence, because they would go, okay,
Speaker:alex: we're going to do the little New York, LA two-week run where people can go see
Speaker:alex: the movie and talk about it.
Speaker:bill: Totally.
Speaker:alex: Netflix has evolved since that last decade.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, like with Frankenstein, where they released in a bunch of limited theater
Speaker:evan: run, and then it's giving it press.
Speaker:bill: Absolutely. I think this movie genuinely didn't get the acknowledgement it deserves,
Speaker:bill: like 100%. And it's possible that is somewhat rooted in the fact that it's a
Speaker:bill: South Korean director. It's very possible that race is...
Speaker:bill: A factor in that. Why just, you know, got put on Netflix instead of like getting,
Speaker:bill: like a real run anywhere or even like a like a prestige run.
Speaker:Rusteen: I think it's also a movie that if you don't know how to react to it,
Speaker:Rusteen: it can kind of catch you off guard.
Speaker:Rusteen: Right. Like it starts off and it's very serene.
Speaker:Rusteen: And then you go into Miranda world and everybody becomes cartoon characters.
Speaker:Rusteen: and if you are not prepared for that and you're watching that at home you're
Speaker:Rusteen: just like why does tilda swinton have braces.
Speaker:bill: Why is jake gyllenhaal.
Speaker:Rusteen: Doing all of that and.
Speaker:bill: We are not criticizing the audience at this regarding this though we are criticizing the studio
Speaker:bill: and anybody at netflix that was behind the decision of like this like that's
Speaker:bill: who we're criticizing and if you totally If you put Tilda Swinton in a movie,
Speaker:bill: like, come on, like you, to be honest, I said like three quarters of the way
Speaker:bill: through, I was like, how did they make Tilda Swinton?
Speaker:bill: She looked like, she looked and sounded like Parker Posey to me.
Speaker:bill: I was like, I have the exact same note.
Speaker:bill: Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Okay.
Speaker:alex: Yes.
Speaker:bill: I'm like, what was the decision to make her Parker Posey?
Speaker:alex: It's the braces scene from Best in Show. That's what she sounds like. Yes.
Speaker:bill: It's wild. And then Jake Gyllenhaal.
Speaker:evan: That is the, yeah.
Speaker:bill: That's it. And his affectation, which is next level wild.
Speaker:alex: I mean, it's wild if you watch any clip of Korean television and you go,
Speaker:alex: oh, this is actually subdued compared to Korean television.
Speaker:Rusteen: Exactly.
Speaker:bill: And there were no strange sound effects. As somebody, my wife and I watch a
Speaker:bill: fair amount of, like, Korean, like, South Korean, like, soaps and stuff like that.
Speaker:bill: And lots of, like, you know, silly sound effects that go along with them for
Speaker:bill: some reason. I'm like, why do you do that?
Speaker:Rusteen: Bong's English films got a bad rap where people would say he doesn't have as
Speaker:Rusteen: firm a hand on his English actors as he does the Korean ones.
Speaker:Rusteen: But when you watch Parasite, that guy in the basement is just as crazy as Jake
Speaker:Rusteen: Gyllenhaal is in this movie.
Speaker:Rusteen: When you finally watch Barking Dogs Never Bite, you'll see that from the beginning,
Speaker:Rusteen: he was having people going Looney Tunes mode.
Speaker:Rusteen: song king ho is drop kicking people throughout memories of murder which is like
Speaker:Rusteen: his most serious movie you know.
Speaker:bill: Like they're.
Speaker:Rusteen: All cartoon characters.
Speaker:bill: But gillenhall like it works though like it works as the kind of like the way
Speaker:bill: these people i mean gillenhall came off as like a,
Speaker:bill: sinister kratz brother like that's how he came off and it's like perfect like
Speaker:bill: that's that's american media like That's not,
Speaker:bill: out of left field for American media at all.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, and maybe just as context for anyone who hasn't seen this movie or has—we
Speaker:evan: already spoiled it, but hasn't seen it in a long time.
Speaker:evan: As we said, so Tillis Wynn plays the CEO or becomes the CEO of the Miranda Corporation,
Speaker:evan: where apparently her twin sister was the previous CEO and their father was this—they,
Speaker:evan: have very terrible things to say about him.
Speaker:evan: and they're breeding a special kind of super pig, but they definitely make it
Speaker:evan: off and their way that they release it to the press is it's very much like this...
Speaker:evan: this special pig that they found, and now they, you know, they bred it,
Speaker:evan: and now they have 26 specimens they're sending around the world.
Speaker:evan: And in 10 years, they'll see which one is the best, the super pig.
Speaker:evan: And that will sort of lead to the, you know, the rest of the movie takes place
Speaker:evan: the 10 years later, where a teenage girl in the South Korean mountains is now
Speaker:evan: basically her best friend is Okja, this giant super pig. And, you know.
Speaker:evan: Their relationship is very lovely, and maybe that part turned people off after
Speaker:evan: the opening scene. I don't know.
Speaker:evan: They just kind of weren't expecting
Speaker:evan: it. They're expecting it to kind of stay in this very weird area.
Speaker:evan: And the real kickoff of this is when Johnny Wilcox, who's played by Jake Gyllenhaal,
Speaker:evan: this crazy doctor, comes and essentially takes Okja away because it's going
Speaker:evan: to now be this announcement and this parade and this whole thing,
Speaker:evan: in new york city and,
Speaker:evan: really everything goes from there and i know the opening scene is pretty wacky
Speaker:evan: and i had some some notes about it and,
Speaker:evan: i don't know what you thought about and we kind of briefly talked about tillis when as the,
Speaker:evan: ceo but just like the way that she presents herself as being an environmentalist
Speaker:evan: and yet she is the ceo of this supposed evil corporation and it's just uh Like
Speaker:evan: you're immediately told,
Speaker:evan: you know, oh, this is like rainbow capitalism.
Speaker:evan: Like this is this company that actually like, you know, does it the good way or something like that.
Speaker:alex: It's a company that is. I want to quote the opening line, which is,
Speaker:alex: we know these walls are stained with the blood of fine working men.
Speaker:alex: But today I reclaim this place to tell you a beautiful story and our new core
Speaker:alex: values. Which I think is.
Speaker:bill: From a company that is definitely not.
Speaker:bill: Definitely not Monsanto at all. This is not Monsanto.
Speaker:alex: She's playing the cartoon version of her character from Michael Clayton.
Speaker:alex: It's the same character.
Speaker:evan: It's just in a different. It honestly is.
Speaker:alex: Yeah.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah. Like, it's all about marketing to her.
Speaker:Rusteen: Like, this movie really reminds me of, like, Upton Sinclair's The Jungle in
Speaker:Rusteen: the, like, that turned everybody, like, into vegetarians.
Speaker:Rusteen: But it's actually about capitalism. And Okja kind of does the same thing where
Speaker:Rusteen: everyone just sees don't eat meat. And the actual message is these corporations
Speaker:Rusteen: are evil and will put a price on all our heads if we allow them to.
Speaker:bill: And the fact that these corporations, every time these kinds of things come
Speaker:bill: out like the jungle, like,
Speaker:bill: we in like liberal, like democracy and Western society, we release these things much like ALF in this.
Speaker:bill: We, you know, people release these things that have the good intentions and
Speaker:bill: like, this will change stuff. And it's like, all that happens is the corporations
Speaker:bill: take that and go, okay, we have to learn from this. What do we do? Okay. We shift.
Speaker:bill: Now we have to do this marketing better. That's all that happens.
Speaker:bill: If you don't change the system, all that happens is that.
Speaker:alex: Yeah, I was doing some research, and there's a quote that Upton Sinclair wrote
Speaker:alex: after the reception to his book, and it was, quote, I aimed at the public's
Speaker:alex: heart, and by accident, I hit them in the stomach.
Speaker:evan: Well, she also says in her little speech, she talks about how her pitch to the
Speaker:evan: people is, you know, there's 7 billion people, there's 800 million people who
Speaker:evan: don't have, you know, struggled hunger, including 30 million in America.
Speaker:evan: And then she's saying, oh, where the world is running out of food.
Speaker:evan: And what she's not saying is that none of this is actually, I mean,
Speaker:evan: there are this many people that are hungry and they go to bed hungry without,
Speaker:evan: you know, at least one meal per day.
Speaker:evan: But they're not running out of food. It's that corporations like this are commodified
Speaker:evan: into the point where people can't purchase the food. There's plenty of food.
Speaker:evan: There's no this like population myth is such a, you know, CEO marketing nonsense.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah. Like Mija lives in the mountains with her grandpa.
Speaker:Rusteen: She's eating fine. Right. Like the food is out there for people.
Speaker:Rusteen: It's just that these corporations have put a high price on anything that's actually healthy for you.
Speaker:Rusteen: And and later in the movie, her her evil sister says, you know,
Speaker:Rusteen: as long as it's cheap, people are going to fucking eat it. Like,
Speaker:Rusteen: that's all that that matters at the end of the day is just the profit.
Speaker:alex: I mean, the movie starts, I think it's very important he does this thematically,
Speaker:alex: is that the movie is not arguing, you know, explicitly for vegetarianism or veganism.
Speaker:alex: The movie starts with her catching fish and having chicken. But it's the point
Speaker:alex: is that they are animals that they raise and she like finds a small fish and
Speaker:alex: throws it back. So the movie is not just saying, you know, eating meat is evil.
Speaker:alex: It's saying, you know, there's ethical ways of doing this. We're just going
Speaker:alex: to show you the unethical way.
Speaker:evan: I saw there were some quotes by the person who helped write the script that
Speaker:evan: they weren't intending it to be this pro-vegetarian kind of film.
Speaker:evan: I think it was at John Ronson.
Speaker:evan: I could easily see people watching this and getting that message,
Speaker:evan: but I think the subtext is exactly what you said, is that there is an ethical
Speaker:evan: way to do these things, but they are choosing violence.
Speaker:alex: I don't know if you guys found the Bong Joon-ho quote about his own experience,
Speaker:alex: but he basically, after the movie, they went to an actual slaughterhouse.
Speaker:alex: And he goes like, after the slaughterhouse, I decided to become a vegan.
Speaker:alex: And then, quote, I flew back to South Korea.
Speaker:alex: And, you know, South Korea is a barbecue paradise.
Speaker:alex: Every street on every corner is burning meat. So I slowly, slowly came back to being a meat eater.
Speaker:alex: But now I'm gradually becoming a pescatarian. That was a, so he's trying.
Speaker:alex: But yeah, even him. I can't take note to Korean barbecue.
Speaker:ward: Yeah, turning vegan here, but then going back to Korea and having to deal with
Speaker:ward: beef bulgogi cooked on the corner, like, good luck.
Speaker:bill: Good luck, yeah.
Speaker:Rusteen: It's like getting exposed to the pure horror of the slaughterhouse just repulses
Speaker:Rusteen: you on like an instinctual level.
Speaker:Rusteen: But the thing about capitalism is that like we all have to participate in it,
Speaker:Rusteen: right? And eventually like we all got to eat and that you're going to smell the bulgogi again.
Speaker:Rusteen: And, and just like Bong's got to make movies, we got to eat.
Speaker:Rusteen: And we know, we all know that, uh, you know, that, that hot dog is coming from
Speaker:Rusteen: the Okja factory, but we need to eat something.
Speaker:bill: This like, okay. Is anybody here a vegan? I know Warden Evan Hart, but I. No.
Speaker:alex: I thought about it for a week after seeing The Shape Detective. I will explain that.
Speaker:bill: Okay. I am,
Speaker:bill: kind of notorious for my issues with veganism.
Speaker:bill: And this movie really, honestly, like, I know a lot of people would watch this
Speaker:bill: movie like, oh, this is going to challenge Bill's views on veganism.
Speaker:bill: And no, actually this movie reaffirmed everything that I ever thought
Speaker:bill: because, and I, because I don't think this subtext is that subtle because he
Speaker:bill: makes a very explicit point to point out one of the ALF members, uh, silver.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah.
Speaker:bill: It's, it's, or blonde. It's silver or black camera.
Speaker:Rusteen: Which it's silver. Yeah.
Speaker:bill: It's silver. Okay. silver who will not even eat vegetables and like is like basically ill,
Speaker:bill: and like it is explicitly pointed out the absurdity of his position and how
Speaker:bill: it is in and of itself and what,
Speaker:bill: i can go at length as to why i think that veganism is a fundamentally flawed
Speaker:bill: ideology based on human centrism and everything beyond that but like,
Speaker:bill: The movie explicitly calls out the foolishness of this kind of like hard line,
Speaker:bill: like separation and how the problem is not what you eat.
Speaker:bill: It is about the system that provides the food, quote unquote,
Speaker:bill: provides the food, but really hoards the food.
Speaker:bill: It is about the system and not what you eat and how you eat is the system that is the problem.
Speaker:alex: It reminded me of the episode The Simpsons where Lisa is dating the environmentalist
Speaker:alex: and he's like, I'm a level five vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow that's what that.
Speaker:bill: I swear to God I'm surrounded by Simpson people.
Speaker:Rusteen: A Simpsons fan speaking a podcast yeah Bill's not a Simpsons.
Speaker:bill: Person but I'm not I'm just I'm lost I don't know what's going on with these
Speaker:bill: quotes about Simpsons and I'm just like.
Speaker:ward: We're having a great time around him yeah please continue Alex don't.
Speaker:bill: Don't stop him on.
Speaker:alex: Bill's it was just that one joke that was it that was all we'll.
Speaker:bill: Keep quoting.
Speaker:Rusteen: Simpsons and not eating cheese just.
Speaker:bill: It's just it's so like i like i really do think i think at one point someone
Speaker:bill: the script you know either bong chun ho this someone was like shit we're we
Speaker:bill: might be promoting veganism too hard i think we need to throw in a segment,
Speaker:bill: a sequence where like we make it a point like oh no no no let's not let's not get twisted on this okay.
Speaker:alex: And i mean i think he literally says uh we make a movement strong.
Speaker:bill: Yeah yeah.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah, that's what but that's like the beautiful thing about Bong's films, right?
Speaker:Rusteen: Like everybody in them is is a shade of gray, right?
Speaker:Rusteen: Or they are a buffoon. Like there's very few pure heroes in his filmography.
Speaker:Rusteen: And Miha is probably the closest to that.
Speaker:bill: Yeah, Misha is definitely the closest.
Speaker:Rusteen: But even her, like, you know, she will just literally run head first into a
Speaker:Rusteen: wall to try to save Okja. Like, she's not infallible.
Speaker:evan: I mean, I think, I mean, that's a good point. I think about other films he has.
Speaker:evan: I think of, like, the sort of the protagonist, like, in the host, Gangdu.
Speaker:evan: Like, he's like, you know, maybe I can cut this because it's a spoiler.
Speaker:evan: like he becomes the the hero but at the same time he's like a terrible father
Speaker:evan: who you know is falling asleep and you know not particularly uh,
Speaker:evan: good but he you know the he like he he does a really good job at creating these
Speaker:evan: multi-faceted interesting characters and i don't know but do you think that
Speaker:evan: any other than miha i mean is anyone really,
Speaker:evan: even some of the people in the alf like are they would you consider them to
Speaker:evan: be i hate the word good because that's such a you know a loaded term.
Speaker:ward: The the truck driver,
Speaker:ward: The truck driver's awesome. Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me?
Speaker:bill: The truck driver's great.
Speaker:ward: The truck driver's so great. The truck driver's so great.
Speaker:Rusteen: The truck driver's so great.
Speaker:bill: And he shows up at the end. I was, I loved that. When he showed up at the end,
Speaker:bill: I was like, awesome. I love that guy.
Speaker:Rusteen: And Bong brought him back for Parasite, too. So it's a fun little cameo, yeah.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, that's true. Well, I mean, the, like, the second, I don't call it the
Speaker:evan: second act, but sort of the, once you're introduced to,
Speaker:evan: like, this corporation and they take you to Miha in the mountains,
Speaker:evan: We have, as I mentioned, the bizarre specimen that is Jake Gyllenhaal's character
Speaker:evan: in this, Dr. Johnny Wilcox.
Speaker:evan: I could not stop laughing. And I was trying to think of like,
Speaker:evan: it seemed like he was doing an impression of someone from something,
Speaker:evan: but I couldn't figure out.
Speaker:evan: does anyone like what do you make of uh i mean we learn later he's like genuinely
Speaker:evan: not a good person and i feel like it was probably uh implicit at the beginning
Speaker:evan: but it's very explicit later that he is um terrible very it was kind.
Speaker:Rusteen: Of like uh what if jim carrey played steve irwin.
Speaker:evan: Was kind of.
Speaker:Rusteen: The vibe i got from jake jill and i definitely.
Speaker:evan: Got ace ventura.
Speaker:bill: Vibes yeah i got ace ventura vibes definitely.
Speaker:evan: In but in the second movie though when nature calls yeah he's.
Speaker:ward: Ventura's got bills to pay.
Speaker:Rusteen: I mean, what if Ace Ventura became the star of a Monsanto ad is like absolutely
Speaker:Rusteen: a thing that could happen in real life, you know?
Speaker:Rusteen: So, so Bong is just seeing the future.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, that's true. I find the whole part when they finally reach the top of the mountain where,
Speaker:evan: the grandfather and Miha are just dropping around all the time like they're
Speaker:evan: used to it, but they're these American guy who just can't even climb up the
Speaker:evan: mountain and he's supposed to be this outdoorsy guy. I thought it's a great bit.
Speaker:Rusteen: And along for the ride is like Miranda, her assistant, who is played by Shirley
Speaker:Rusteen: Henderson, a.k.a. Babu Frick.
Speaker:alex: There it is. Babu.
Speaker:Rusteen: Hey, hey.
Speaker:bill: That's who that is.
Speaker:Rusteen: That's Babu Frick, baby.
Speaker:bill: I recognized her. It took me a while, but I was like, not to,
Speaker:bill: I mean, I hate to speak her name, but I was like, oh, that's the one from,
Speaker:bill: I was like, it's the ghost in the bathroom. I'm like, it's the ghost in the bathroom.
Speaker:Rusteen: Well, now you can call her Babu Frick. It's okay.
Speaker:evan: All right. So that's the Star Wars connection.
Speaker:alex: And Giancarlo Stanton. Not Giancarlo Stanton. Fucking Giancarlo Esposito.
Speaker:alex: I have Yankees on the brain. Sorry.
Speaker:bill: Yes.
Speaker:alex: You know, it's also in the Star Wars world.
Speaker:evan: Right, right. Yeah. And the Mandalorian, right? Yes.
Speaker:alex: He's working on his like little subway card to get in every franchise and when
Speaker:alex: he gets to a hundred percent. Yeah.
Speaker:alex: Sigourney just got hers. He's up next. Yeah.
Speaker:evan: Oh, I do like that. I did not realize that that was that was Shirley Henderson.
Speaker:evan: I mean, I looked in the thing and I just like didn't put those.
Speaker:alex: Do we want to talk about them recreating the Bin Laden photo?
Speaker:evan: Oh, yes.
Speaker:alex: Did all of you notice this?
Speaker:ward: No.
Speaker:alex: Oh, when they're watching the footage of what's happening in South Korea,
Speaker:alex: it is a one-for-one recreation of the White House photo of them learning about
Speaker:alex: that they killed Bin Laden. I have it up on my phone.
Speaker:Rusteen: Down to Giancarlo as Obama.
Speaker:alex: Yeah.
Speaker:Rusteen: Tilda Swinton is Hillary Clinton.
Speaker:ward: Oh, jeez.
Speaker:Rusteen: I didn't even catch that at all. The best part of it is Jake Gyllenhaal as Joe Biden.
Speaker:alex: Yeah.
Speaker:Rusteen: I can't even say that.
Speaker:evan: Hilarious that is uh i didn't catch.
Speaker:ward: That at all.
Speaker:bill: No that's amazing.
Speaker:evan: That does seem like something that like bondron would would like pull out to uh oh for.
Speaker:Rusteen: Sure like like drawing the line between the white house and corporate america
Speaker:Rusteen: right like the only difference in that photo is the chairs that they're sitting in
Speaker:Rusteen: like that's the only difference is that they're those shitty like plastic chairs
Speaker:Rusteen: instead of old timey, uh, cushiony ones.
Speaker:evan: That's it yeah the like the entire i mean it's,
Speaker:evan: like the corporate i mean i feel like there's like two sides there's like the
Speaker:evan: whole side of the the corporation the mirando corporation and all the things they're doing
Speaker:evan: but then there's also the you know you have the alf that's sort of fighting
Speaker:evan: against them and trying to take them down and we have like the like one of the
Speaker:evan: funniest scenes i think too is when they're taking ocho away you have the truck driver you mentioned
Speaker:evan: what is the truck driver's name again uh i can't think of what his name was.
Speaker:ward: I don't know that's why i called him the truck driver.
Speaker:evan: Man yeah maybe he does maybe they don't give a name but like they have the the
Speaker:evan: like the chase scene and then the like oak just going through like the underground
Speaker:evan: mall and the the the trains they i guess it's a sub like the train station.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah they're down in like the underground malls that are like connected to the subway.
Speaker:evan: Stations before.
Speaker:alex: That we get the the scene where it's like the company representative is driving
Speaker:alex: with the driver and he asked him if he has like a license and he goes i do.
Speaker:evan: Have a license.
Speaker:alex: I don't have workman's comp.
Speaker:evan: And then as the worker runs away.
Speaker:alex: The business guy goes well i want to show you what actual company culture looks
Speaker:alex: like and then gets hit in the head with a door just yeah subtle yeah and pooped on yes.
Speaker:evan: Yeah just rained on poop on like doesn't he then call his wife and ask her like oh do we have the uh.
Speaker:bill: What body lotion do we.
Speaker:evan: Have or what.
Speaker:bill: Body wash do we have.
Speaker:evan: Yeah yeah i mean they like there's such um i mean you wouldn't necessarily at all call this
Speaker:evan: a comedy but in the same way that i think that his most recent film like mickey
Speaker:evan: 17 is a sci-fi film or sort of this
Speaker:evan: i don't wouldn't really call this a sci-fi film i think it's called a sci-fi
Speaker:evan: action film in wikipedia i don't know if i go with that genre i would definitely.
Speaker:alex: Say it's a comedy.
Speaker:evan: Yeah i think that's what i yeah to me it's much more of a comedy than anything
Speaker:evan: and the comedic moments in mickey 17 is i don't think necessarily what people
Speaker:evan: were expecting perhaps and maybe let's it's also not doing is actually that
Speaker:evan: made it to the box office i don't think.
Speaker:alex: There's any way you could sell mickey 17 in which it was a box office success
Speaker:alex: i think they did the best they could with uh robert pattinson doing like a steve
Speaker:alex: ushami impression for half the movie.
Speaker:Rusteen: Which is incredible uh yeah the special effects work in both films i think is
Speaker:Rusteen: probably why like okja is getting
Speaker:Rusteen: classified as like science fiction just because of how well realized
Speaker:Rusteen: okja is as this like alternate being.
Speaker:bill: I mean yeah i mean it is fundamentally it has a sign as a.
Speaker:ward: Yeah if it relies on fictional science as part of a part of the plot it's science
Speaker:ward: fiction yeah so this is technically science fiction.
Speaker:Rusteen: It's taking like i wouldn't be.
Speaker:ward: Like explaining it to somebody like oh.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah it's a sci-fi film yeah about taking the science of like gmo foods right
Speaker:Rusteen: and just like extrapolating it out of like what if et was a genetically modified
Speaker:Rusteen: pig i think and he was delicious.
Speaker:bill: I i think the i think in terms of like genre i think the fact that matters is that We have been,
Speaker:bill: like, society as a whole, like, you know, has been conditioned to think of sci-fi
Speaker:bill: as something that is overwhelmingly sci-fi and, like, you know,
Speaker:bill: set in space, you know, involving space travel or, like, everything about it
Speaker:bill: is rooted in, you know, like, Blade Runner.
Speaker:bill: Blade Runner is sci-fi despite the fact that Blade Runner takes place in a you
Speaker:bill: know on on earth you know and you don't you know you never meet an alien you don't know that shit,
Speaker:bill: but it is overwhelmingly concerned with and I think the with the the science
Speaker:bill: fiction aspect of like you know the replicants,
Speaker:bill: and I think that this movie doesn't to a lot of people doesn't feel sci-fi but
Speaker:bill: in reality like it is very much sci-fi and has the core,
Speaker:bill: philosophy of sci-fi in which we take science,
Speaker:bill: extrapolate out and then learn something about our present condition by using
Speaker:bill: science and science fiction aspects and like.
Speaker:bill: Fantastical science and speculative science to to reflect on our current conditions
Speaker:bill: this is very much science fiction it's just that we
Speaker:bill: have been led like we have largely been led to it's like it's not sci-fi unless
Speaker:bill: it's a space and yeah it's just not,
Speaker:bill: what science fiction is. That's just not what it is.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, the I had a I had like a note that I would mentioned after they.
Speaker:evan: Oh, well, I do love the when they're in like the underground mall and the like
Speaker:evan: the police or the security is shooting like the I guess their darts to put the
Speaker:evan: the pig to sleep or to sleep and they rip out those umbrellas to deflect them. I love that.
Speaker:bill: It was beautiful.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah, it's a great scene. It's a great little like fantastical flourish.
Speaker:Rusteen: Like they show up with the umbrellas just in time and they get to be like nonviolent
Speaker:Rusteen: heroes. Right. In that moment.
Speaker:bill: Well, that's the thing that they bring up a lot.
Speaker:evan: I was about to say that it's like, they constantly say that,
Speaker:evan: you know, especially Paul Dano says numerous times, they don't believe in violence.
Speaker:evan: And then when he has to do something that's like mildly violent,
Speaker:evan: he sort of has to not apologize, but then reiterate, like I'm only doing this
Speaker:evan: because it's part of this plan we have. And, you know, that's what we have to do.
Speaker:alex: So in preface episode, I wanted to do, we talked a little bit about veganism
Speaker:alex: but i found a really good article it's called uh,
Speaker:alex: bear with me if there's some people who don't like veganism but it's uh how
Speaker:alex: animals ourselves the socialist feminist case for animal liberation and it's
Speaker:alex: not what you think it is it's actually a really good article uh it's by astra
Speaker:alex: taylor who's a really great writer uh and sonora taylor,
Speaker:alex: um and it sort of it starts with talking about like the perception of create
Speaker:alex: of cringe veganism of how annoying vegans can be and that when you see other
Speaker:alex: vegans being that level of performative of it's sort of like,
Speaker:alex: you get terrified because like oh they're gonna make us look obnoxious we have
Speaker:alex: to be very normal it's very cool you can't be seen as cringe and it sort of
Speaker:alex: it gets into a lot of the themes of the movie of we can't just reduce the fact
Speaker:alex: of animals being this is a this is an issue of i mean the movie makes a very
Speaker:alex: good point of like women's bodies being abused and how,
Speaker:alex: bodies are just turned into capital it's not just about eating people are not
Speaker:alex: eating animals it's about all these things they reduce the capital so i recommend i recommend,
Speaker:alex: anyone listening who wants to go a deep dive on it but yeah it's it's sort of
Speaker:alex: this public perception of veganism is as much as a fight as the the battle itself
Speaker:alex: of if you say the wrong thing suddenly people are just gonna give up on this entire idea and,
Speaker:alex: there's a very like there's a very uh what's the right word but uh everyone's
Speaker:alex: very delicate about their politics in real life and both in the movie.
Speaker:Rusteen: And it's worth saying that the alf is like a real organization although all
Speaker:Rusteen: the characters in here are fictional and i was watching some of like the behind
Speaker:Rusteen: the scenes um doc stuff on the criterion release of the film and,
Speaker:Rusteen: bong talks about how his cousin is an animal rights activist and like took him
Speaker:Rusteen: to dc to go meet with a lot of the people who would not confirm or deny whether
Speaker:Rusteen: whether or not they were actual alf members,
Speaker:Rusteen: so he's like pulling from real experiences with these characters as cartoonish as they might be.
Speaker:evan: And you still get the what's i think probably accurate is you also have the
Speaker:evan: conflict within the members of alf like specifically like the stephen yuen character as k,
Speaker:evan: who they kick out of the group because he,
Speaker:evan: lied to them by translating what mihat said as like oh yeah you can use okja
Speaker:evan: as part of this plan to expose the miranda corporation when she didn't say that at all and it's,
Speaker:evan: You know, it is definitely a betrayal of what, you know, she wanted,
Speaker:evan: but they sort of had this greater plan. And the question is,
Speaker:evan: would Paul Dano have gone ahead with it if she had, if he had said, the girl had said no?
Speaker:alex: I mean, I want to put out that literally the first lines that the,
Speaker:alex: they say when they jump out of the truck in their first scene is the first words
Speaker:alex: they scream is no compromise.
Speaker:alex: Like that's how they start with no compromise. So I think, honestly,
Speaker:alex: I think Paul Dano character would have stopped there. I think he that is his
Speaker:alex: character does not compromise.
Speaker:ward: 100% no he's he's very much a hardliner immediately beats the shit as Stephen Wynn like fucking.
Speaker:alex: You have you have.
Speaker:ward: Betrayed the code doesn't hold doesn't hold back immediately beats the fuck
Speaker:ward: out of him yeah yeah yeah get the fuck out and we're keeping your shit,
Speaker:ward: we're keeping this yeah and the driver just keeps saying it's not.
Speaker:Rusteen: My truck it's the company's truck I don't give a.
Speaker:ward: Fuck yeah exactly.
Speaker:bill: I think I think,
Speaker:bill: I'm sorry. Go on, Rusty.
Speaker:Rusteen: I was just going to say, I love Jay's little trolley problem that he gives to Mija, right?
Speaker:Rusteen: We can either let you go with Okja, or we can use Okja to save all of the super pigs.
Speaker:Rusteen: And Mija doesn't think about it for a second, right? She immediately says that
Speaker:Rusteen: she wants to take Okja back to the mountains.
Speaker:alex: And that's ultimately how the movie ends.
Speaker:bill: Yeah.
Speaker:alex: The rest of the movie didn't matter.
Speaker:bill: They ended.
Speaker:alex: Up in the same place.
Speaker:bill: Plus an extra baby but they saved the extra they saved the baby that's.
Speaker:alex: True that they saved the baby.
Speaker:bill: They did that is actually my so all right i am not a vegan i'm not a vegetarian
Speaker:bill: um but there is like i do fundamentally think that i think that this,
Speaker:bill: the movie constantly draws parallels between oak jaw and the super pigs and
Speaker:bill: human beings specifically like what this movie actually does consistently,
Speaker:bill: especially when they, they,
Speaker:bill: and the end scene is like, so you cut from at one point you cut from a scene of, uh,
Speaker:bill: Oak job being like herded into a vehicle to crowds of human beings being going
Speaker:bill: up and down subway stairs, which look very much like cattle shoots. Um.
Speaker:bill: And later on, you know, we have that whole scene at the slaughterhouse and it's
Speaker:bill: all the fences, the guy, you know, the barbed wire, the fences,
Speaker:bill: the wall, the gates, everything.
Speaker:bill: And then what do we do at the end? We cut to Paul Dano getting out of prison.
Speaker:bill: What is he walking through?
Speaker:bill: High fences, barbed wire, gates, walls, the same thing.
Speaker:bill: And it's like, yes, this definitely does make you think about the idea of like the way we produce food.
Speaker:bill: And I will never argue that factory farming is a good thing.
Speaker:bill: I am 100% against that kind of like.
Speaker:bill: Methodology of food production. But with this movie, more than anything else
Speaker:bill: is that what it actually, to me, what it says loud and clear is that humans
Speaker:bill: are commodified by capitalists.
Speaker:bill: That's what is happening here.
Speaker:bill: Yes. Look at Oakjaw, look at super pigs.
Speaker:bill: And furthermore, the fact of the matter is, is that Oakjaw and the super pigs
Speaker:bill: are clearly shown to be not just intelligent, but sapient beings who care about
Speaker:bill: others and put others before themselves.
Speaker:bill: Right off the bat, Okja sacrifices herself for Mija's safety.
Speaker:bill: Or Okja lives, but when they fall off the mountain and Okja does that,
Speaker:bill: first of all, clocks, makes a plan and then saves Mija's life.
Speaker:bill: And then later on, those two -sweeper pigs deliberately harm themselves to lift
Speaker:bill: the wire and save their baby. Like, they're not dumb animals.
Speaker:alex: They're not, you know. There's also recent evidence that pigs also do that, which is.
Speaker:bill: Absolutely. Yes. Though pigs will also, let's not get it too twisted.
Speaker:bill: Pigs will also eat the tails off of their fellow pigs and will brutalize each other.
Speaker:bill: Pigs are incredibly dangerous, savage animals.
Speaker:alex: Yeah, they're closer to humans.
Speaker:bill: Yeah. They absolutely are. They 100% are.
Speaker:bill: Let's not paint pigs all as Wilbur from Charlotte's Web.
Speaker:alex: No.
Speaker:bill: They are brutal creatures. Go feral within six weeks.
Speaker:alex: What you're saying, it reminds me of the Kurt Vonnegut quote,
Speaker:alex: which is, life is no way to treat an animal.
Speaker:bill: Right.
Speaker:alex: Yes.
Speaker:bill: And like, I... To go back to the veganism, and I'm sorry. I'm going to talk
Speaker:bill: about like... Does anybody...
Speaker:bill: Does anybody have any, any, uh, Evan Ward, do you have, uh, objections to me
Speaker:bill: going about this a little bit?
Speaker:ward: No.
Speaker:bill: Okay.
Speaker:ward: I'm fine with it.
Speaker:bill: Evan? Evan, how?
Speaker:evan: Please, please.
Speaker:bill: Okay. This is my primary issue with veganism.
Speaker:bill: And what I think this movie still does address is that veganism and like,
Speaker:bill: Alex, I understand what you're saying. Like, I think you're right.
Speaker:bill: What you said about the article that you were reading, but you referenced.
Speaker:bill: but fundamentally veganism sets humans apart from animals and by animals i mean
Speaker:bill: like the animals we eat it's it takes humans and says you are not part of the
Speaker:bill: system you are a separate outsider what's that,
Speaker:bill: like i mean like literally like it basically it is a notion that makes that's
Speaker:bill: like humans are somehow superior and separate and isolated from the rest of
Speaker:bill: the natural system didn't.
Speaker:evan: You read animal farm.
Speaker:bill: Don't don't bring up animals i'm.
Speaker:Rusteen: Sorry i'm sorry continue.
Speaker:bill: Whereas like in reality humans are animals we eat animals and we eat plants
Speaker:bill: and like we are part of the system
Speaker:bill: the system we are part of the systemic ecology of the planet the issue is not
Speaker:bill: that you're eating animals it's that you have completely and utterly denied the,
Speaker:bill: And overridden the systemic ecological premise of your participation in the system and hijacked it.
Speaker:bill: And veganism is the same thing.
Speaker:bill: You're still separating yourself from the system and saying, I'm not part of that.
Speaker:bill: I don't participate in that. You do. You have to.
Speaker:bill: So I think not doing so is actually dangerous and bad.
Speaker:alex: I will counter with that. I think I really do recommend reading this article,
Speaker:alex: which is because I also have a similar thoughts of you do of like how much veganism
Speaker:alex: is performative, how much of it is really, you know, engaging with the bigger
Speaker:alex: question. And I think watching this movie, I thought a lot about like the perception
Speaker:alex: of the PETA movement from the 70s to today.
Speaker:alex: And I also thought about some research of like what happened to the Sunrise
Speaker:alex: Movement, of why the Sunrise Movement has sort of petered out.
Speaker:alex: And I think ultimately is that when you focus on these individual issues separate
Speaker:alex: from class, you always hit a wall. And I think- Absolutely.
Speaker:alex: I think vegans would agree with you. It's like, you know what?
Speaker:alex: Your point is fine. Let's get to a place where people can make that choice themselves
Speaker:alex: and they're not bound in a system that forces them into that choice.
Speaker:bill: A hundred percent.
Speaker:alex: That's a logical choice, but ultimately we're all forced into a system where
Speaker:alex: the food that is affordable is the food that is bad for us. The food that is,
Speaker:alex: societally acceptable is the food that's bad for us. If you guys want to eat vegan, eat vegan.
Speaker:alex: That's not stopping anybody. It's the it's viewing the issue of veganism as
Speaker:alex: a leading indicator of what's wrong, as opposed to a symptom of what's wrong.
Speaker:alex: I think that's that's the difference. I think this article, I think,
Speaker:alex: actually argues what you're saying is like by by understanding veganism as a
Speaker:alex: broader class issue, then that allows you to actually really move forward with it.
Speaker:alex: I don't want to talk about this more, but I also want to talk a little bit about
Speaker:alex: like watching this movie and the way it felt 10 years ago was like since this
Speaker:alex: movie came out, like the McPlant came out.
Speaker:alex: The McPlant was highly promoted and then the McPlant was removed due to the lack of interest
Speaker:alex: and just the rise of like impossible meat and then the disappearance of impossible
Speaker:alex: meat and sort of how this movie ties into the idea like, oh,
Speaker:alex: if we just like come up with a cheap alternative to the meat that's there,
Speaker:alex: people will switch to it. And yet they did not.
Speaker:alex: And so I wonder if you guys sort of had any thoughts of that in the lens of this movie.
Speaker:Rusteen: Well, I feel like those examples were not cheaper. Right.
Speaker:Rusteen: my recollection especially about a lot of the fake meats is that they cost as
Speaker:Rusteen: much as real meat if not more you're paying an extra five dollars at the burger
Speaker:Rusteen: shop to get an impossible burger
Speaker:Rusteen: instead of a regular burger and so that's maybe the reason why they failed in
Speaker:Rusteen: becoming a kind of luxury product instead of,
Speaker:Rusteen: a cheaper one.
Speaker:evan: It didn't didn't Burger King if I'm not mistaken have the like an impossible
Speaker:evan: impossible like I don't think the sales of it was good and they got rid of it.
Speaker:evan: I don't know. I don't go to Burger King, but I don't think that it succeeded in any at all.
Speaker:evan: And I think given the given the option, you're at a fast food restaurant.
Speaker:evan: Most people are going there because they want the not even cheap anymore,
Speaker:evan: but the you know, the bad for you hamburger and not because they're going for
Speaker:evan: the healthy alternative impossible burger.
Speaker:evan: And yeah, I it's interesting how the that when did that come out?
Speaker:evan: Was that around the same time as this film like being released that that became like the big.
Speaker:alex: Possible beat was like 2022.
Speaker:bill: Like that was longer ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. More recent.
Speaker:bill: But it's also like, but again, like none of those things are also like,
Speaker:bill: that is fundamentally one of the issues is of those things. It's like none of
Speaker:bill: those like impossible meats or anything like that.
Speaker:bill: They're all ecologically as bad or worse than regular meat.
Speaker:bill: Like they, they're not better for the environment. And in many cases,
Speaker:bill: they're as bad, if not worse in the way they're produced.
Speaker:alex: I mean, it's a salvation will not come through capital. I think that's what
Speaker:alex: the movie sort of arguing is that.
Speaker:bill: A hundred percent. Yeah, totally.
Speaker:evan: Yeah.
Speaker:ward: Yeah. That's one of my favorite aspects of the movie is that like they,
Speaker:ward: they, they try to do moral and like ethical appeals.
Speaker:ward: And it's like, they don't give a fuck, dog. They got private security and they're businessmen.
Speaker:ward: They literally said, it's business. They don't give a fuck.
Speaker:ward: Until you made a deal with them, they don't give a fuck. Because guess what?
Speaker:ward: You didn't bring guns to this deal. They did.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, I mean, you learn that the CEO's twin sister is, she talks about how she
Speaker:evan: had run the company before.
Speaker:evan: I mean, she rules the company or would rule the company in just a,
Speaker:evan: we don't give a shit about what anyone thinks we will do these evil things they
Speaker:evan: don't even seem to even care that the
Speaker:evan: video has now been released to this crowd and we release this they i think one
Speaker:evan: of you said before is they'll just if they sell their meat cheap enough people
Speaker:evan: will just buy it because they need food and at the end of the day,
Speaker:evan: the corporation will still you know win yeah the.
Speaker:alex: The deal at the end is she goes i'll i'll give you okja as long as you pay me
Speaker:alex: for it and you can almost see that in her mind like okay let's actually let's
Speaker:alex: start the week of like we can also sell oaches as pets at an absurd price that's
Speaker:alex: fine by us as well like that's.
Speaker:bill: That's a big bet.
Speaker:evan: You'd have to pay with a golden.
Speaker:Rusteen: Pig though that's the only way to buy them it's a bit of a steep price.
Speaker:evan: I think.
Speaker:bill: Ward though touched on something when when ward when you said like how like
Speaker:bill: they're like we have the guns and i i think that like,
Speaker:bill: Bong Joon-ho is like saying something about, you know, it's a very subtle,
Speaker:bill: it's like, it's a subtle on like, you know, shot at like activists and organizers,
Speaker:bill: like largely in the West.
Speaker:bill: It's like, hey, hey, yeah, your non-peaceful protests, they don't do anything. You need to do more.
Speaker:bill: You, they have guns and they're going to use them on you. And if you keep on
Speaker:bill: just being like, no violence, they're just going to shoot.
Speaker:alex: Which is all funny because they know the makeup so far. After Reservoir Dog
Speaker:alex: characters and dress up like Reservoir Dogs.
Speaker:ward: We refuse to do.
Speaker:bill: Violence were you saying work.
Speaker:ward: Yeah no like you're only going to make it so far with non-violence like at the
Speaker:ward: end of the day they have guns and like evan like you're saying like the sister
Speaker:ward: like rules like more ruthlessly and it's like
Speaker:ward: that's not exactly true the other sister just puts on a better face yeah she
Speaker:ward: puts on that like classic 1.0 woke 1.0 face,
Speaker:ward: But like she was still talking about like, oh, we get our private security there
Speaker:ward: and we have our arrangements with NYPD, right?
Speaker:bill: Yeah, that line stuck out big time.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, that's what I said at the beginning. I think it's like her version,
Speaker:evan: the Tilda Swinton version is like the rainbow capitalism. Like,
Speaker:evan: yes, we're evil, but like, you know, it's going to be, you know,
Speaker:evan: we're going to make it sound cushy and nice for the for the viewer.
Speaker:Rusteen: But at the same time, like Mija doesn't save Okja with violence.
Speaker:Rusteen: she saves okja with capitalism she saves okja by making a gun well none.
Speaker:bill: Of them brought guns but that's all she can't.
Speaker:Rusteen: Demand yeah because.
Speaker:bill: The other side has guns just saves okja she does not affect fundamental change to the system.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah.
Speaker:bill: Like yeah she saves okja.
Speaker:Rusteen: She does.
Speaker:bill: Nothing else though.
Speaker:Rusteen: That's the the most she's able to do in that moment right like we're all you
Speaker:Rusteen: know yeah rendered helpless uh by the the slaughterhouse.
Speaker:bill: She's a kid i'm not gonna judge her too hard.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah we're not pulling out a glock and capping we get the nice cut to her.
Speaker:ward: Like on the farm with oaksha and then like cut to fucking paul dano getting
Speaker:ward: out but like during all that time how many more feedlots have they built of super pigs.
Speaker:Rusteen: I mean the the thing that really stuck out the most to me on this rewatch which
Speaker:Rusteen: is the line where Nancy Miranda says, we can only sell the dead ones.
Speaker:Rusteen: And then later says there it's all edible except the squeal.
Speaker:bill: That's an old farmer saying.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah. And like the end of the movie has them saving one of the little pigs and
Speaker:Rusteen: then all of the super pigs in the slaughterhouse start crying out and howling.
Speaker:Rusteen: And like, that's the one thing that is not profitable to the company.
Speaker:Rusteen: But it's also the most pure expression of their humanity, for lack of a better
Speaker:Rusteen: word. Like the thing that's not profitable is the thing that proves they are alive.
Speaker:Rusteen: And I think that is really just the symbol of how capitalism has just put a
Speaker:Rusteen: price on all of the super pigs heads, just like it does on Misia and all of ours.
Speaker:alex: It also made me think of like the weird disease that I think I can only speak of the American mind.
Speaker:alex: I can't speak of like the broader mind of like people in this country truly
Speaker:alex: care about animals more than people at this point.
Speaker:alex: As long as it's a cute dog, they care about that more than people.
Speaker:alex: It's like the John Wick franchise exists because the idea is like killing one
Speaker:alex: dog is worth 2,000 human lives. Like that is that is our...
Speaker:alex: face math of like here in la like they're the some people were like hanging
Speaker:alex: on their apartment celebrating because the nicks won and then the cops showed
Speaker:alex: up and killed the dog because it was wearing a nicks shirt and was like barking
Speaker:alex: and like the mayor came out and made a fucking statement be like well you know
Speaker:alex: we can never let this happen again we're gonna do some like real deep searching
Speaker:alex: why this happened meanwhile random people are getting shot and killed by the lapd every day,
Speaker:alex: but when it's an animal people care more and it's this weird sort of like given
Speaker:alex: pick of like if everyone in the country probably like supported okja but then
Speaker:alex: would not care about anything else besides okja.
Speaker:Rusteen: And we see that come up in the way that um,
Speaker:Rusteen: mija and jay relate to okja where at the end of the movie when okja is kind of out of it and bites her
Speaker:Rusteen: jay runs up and the non-violent activist is prepared to hit okja to save her
Speaker:Rusteen: and mija stops him and instead talks to okja to get her to let her go.
Speaker:Rusteen: Like, even the activist still sees Okja and all the pigs and all the animals
Speaker:Rusteen: as beasts that are separate from humanity in the way that you were talking about, Bill.
Speaker:Rusteen: But it's only Mija who really sees a connection that we are all the same.
Speaker:evan: Yeah.
Speaker:ward: Now, I kind of appreciated that from Paul Dano's character where it was like, I am for the animals.
Speaker:ward: Oh, wait, shit, that one's killing somebody? Nah.
Speaker:bill: I mean, there is a certain level of, well, I mean, I think that like part of
Speaker:bill: it, because it's never explicitly addressed, it's only subtext is the,
Speaker:bill: you know, like is the humanization of Okja.
Speaker:bill: And the fact of the matter is that this is, or not Okja, but the super pigs
Speaker:bill: in general, and not anthropomorphization.
Speaker:bill: Like this is not anthropomorphization. We are explicitly shown that these are
Speaker:bill: thinking, feeling creatures.
Speaker:bill: In a way that we can understand and recognize the same way that,
Speaker:bill: you know, if you pay attention and, you know, like, and be, I think it's,
Speaker:bill: it's, it stands out because this is a created creature.
Speaker:bill: This isn't something like, if you know, you, if you are aware,
Speaker:bill: if you know, like orcas are sentient, sapient creatures, they have culture,
Speaker:bill: they have language, they have dialects, they have all that shit,
Speaker:bill: you know, elephants, sentient, sapient creatures, you know, like, you know, but,
Speaker:bill: they have existed forever.
Speaker:bill: you know to humans it's like well that's just part of the background you know
Speaker:bill: it's like but this is like a new thing it's like oh and in many ways the super
Speaker:bill: bigs are really meant they serve as an allegory more than anything else but
Speaker:bill: you know it's like i kind of lost track where i was going,
Speaker:bill: well i think i really like them as.
Speaker:ward: I really like them as like an allegory for like nature and innocence and it's like,
Speaker:ward: it really shows like it's the system like capitalism that ruins these things
Speaker:ward: because we had all this time in the beginning with Okja on the farm with humans, no problem.
Speaker:ward: So it's not humans that are the problem. I mean, the movie ends with- It's once
Speaker:ward: they get into the system.
Speaker:alex: With the application that, like, Okja is now talking, if not whispering her ear.
Speaker:bill: Yes!
Speaker:Rusteen: Mm-hmm.
Speaker:ward: Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker:bill: That was beautiful.
Speaker:ward: That was beautiful.
Speaker:alex: But I mean, I'm a white Jewish guy. I'm not in the place to talk about this.
Speaker:alex: But like, it's only two years ago did South Korea officially come up with a
Speaker:alex: plan of banning dog meat.
Speaker:alex: And it's a very dog looking animal. I think for Bong Joon-ho,
Speaker:alex: there's an extra element of that, which is that he goes to the West and there's
Speaker:alex: these animals that are held up as like the most holy thing for our society.
Speaker:alex: And then back at home, they are food. I think there is some element of that.
Speaker:alex: I can't speak to that with my own background, but there was something about that.
Speaker:bill: Except they are also pets in South Korea. Like, yeah, they're both. It's, you know.
Speaker:ward: Yeah, it's usually a specific breed that's for eating while like all the other breeds are pets.
Speaker:Rusteen: In the docks, he talks about like specifically using dogs and like the dogs
Speaker:Rusteen: of the various people in the production as influences for Okja, especially her eyes,
Speaker:Rusteen: the way as like the vehicle with which we form that kind of connection with them.
Speaker:Rusteen: So, yeah, she's very much like a dog mixed with a pig mixed with a hippo.
Speaker:Rusteen: And you're getting kind of like all the biggest parts of each of those.
Speaker:ward: Yeah, I mean, if you're going to pull from like an animal to try to like anthropomorphize
Speaker:ward: a sci-fi animal for like facial features and like facial expressions, dogs are a good one.
Speaker:ward: Because they've been so domesticated for so long that they like recognize human
Speaker:ward: facial feature of facial expressions and they'll try to mimic them.
Speaker:bill: Dogs trigger oxytocin release in human beings.
Speaker:alex: And we trigger oxytocin in them. It's like a very bad, yeah.
Speaker:ward: It's awesome.
Speaker:bill: Dogs are as much human as humans are dogs to a certain degree.
Speaker:bill: We are intimately, intimately connected as two species are unlike almost any other species.
Speaker:bill: There are very few species that we have a physiological, psychological,
Speaker:bill: and sociological connection to the way we do with dogs.
Speaker:bill: there are very few animals that we have that connection with i think they're
Speaker:bill: the cats cats are kind of like that but it's a whole other ball of you know.
Speaker:evan: Ball of yarn.
Speaker:bill: But yes god damn that you know i didn't want to say that i was like it's too on the nose.
Speaker:evan: You have to.
Speaker:bill: I know um do we get to complain.
Speaker:Rusteen: About cat people now because i'm kind of like bill but.
Speaker:bill: For cat people i'm i'm Totally okay with cats. I have no problem.
Speaker:bill: I literally work. Like I take care of animals as like my living.
Speaker:bill: That's what I do. I take care of like animals. Like I've been in the pet industry
Speaker:bill: for most of my adult life. Um,
Speaker:bill: But like, you know, there are very few animals that we have connections with
Speaker:bill: like that, you know, um, water buffalo in like Southeast Asia have that kind
Speaker:bill: of connection in a lot of ways, which is wild.
Speaker:bill: Um, but you know, it's, it's, there is a reason that dogs are seen that way.
Speaker:evan: Something else I was going to mention. well so this is this is like maybe going back slightly but the,
Speaker:evan: this like goes to like the parade near the end and i was thinking about how
Speaker:evan: you know the they show the video all the people are sort of like horrified by
Speaker:evan: the conditions of the miranda corporation,
Speaker:evan: and yet even in like real life we us and
Speaker:evan: majority of people know how evil so many different companies are obviously there's
Speaker:evan: boycotts of target and different companies we know the terrible things that
Speaker:evan: they're doing where that they do and yet,
Speaker:evan: you know most people will just sort of go about the day and be like well i still
Speaker:evan: need to eat and i don't like blame people for this you know like using amazon
Speaker:evan: because there's no other way to get the thing that they need medication or whatever
Speaker:evan: it is i guess the idea that,
Speaker:evan: That we've all been saying, I think, is that the system of this prevents the
Speaker:evan: ethical consumption of meat or the purchasing of,
Speaker:evan: any variety of goods, because we know these companies are evil,
Speaker:evan: but there's really no alternative in our current system and structure.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah, I found an interview with Bong, with Vice at the time the movie came out.
Speaker:Rusteen: And the interviewer asked, do you think we have it in us to moderate our behavior
Speaker:Rusteen: when it comes to capitalism?
Speaker:Rusteen: Can we control ourselves, whether it's through mass production or reliance on technology?
Speaker:Rusteen: And he answered, I don't think it'll be easy. It's always difficult to fight
Speaker:Rusteen: the stream and tide of capitalism, but we can't stay pessimistic forever.
Speaker:Rusteen: We always have to fight for change and strive for change and strive to make
Speaker:Rusteen: a crack in the wall of capitalism.
Speaker:Rusteen: I do believe there is hope.
Speaker:Rusteen: And I think that visual of making a crack in the wall,
Speaker:Rusteen: is really emblematic of Bong's oeuvre and his voice as,
Speaker:Rusteen: a filmmaker the idea that like we're not gonna break the wall down in a day
Speaker:Rusteen: but through each of us throwing ourselves at the wall like mija does,
Speaker:Rusteen: you know we can make a crack and eventually if we make enough cracks that'll you know change the tide.
Speaker:alex: Pete spent the last 40 years trying to shock people out of being out of eating
Speaker:alex: animals and if that would have worked that would have worked yeah but.
Speaker:bill: It's also, it has become increasingly clear that PETA is literally,
Speaker:bill: like, PETA's role in the system is actually to undermine those messages.
Speaker:bill: like they are part of the system and PETA notoriously has been implicated and proven to be,
Speaker:bill: part of systems of abuse and like death of animals because all of their shit
Speaker:bill: ends at that performative because they are actually part of the problem they are funded by you know.
Speaker:alex: I went to their website. They have a sign up. It's a join PETA's action team.
Speaker:alex: Be the first to know about epic protests. Sign up here.
Speaker:bill: Yeah, like they're not.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, I mean, like the thing, too, is that Miha only, you know,
Speaker:evan: they were saying is that she only is able to save Okja. She gives the she pays
Speaker:evan: the CEO for the for the pig. She gets to bring it home.
Speaker:evan: The baby also comes along in the same way that she's only able to save one thing.
Speaker:evan: I mean, maybe that the ALF is only able to reach 100 people,
Speaker:evan: 1,000 people that they see the evil that these corporations are doing.
Speaker:evan: I think that's what you're saying is that, yeah, these like little cracks eventually,
Speaker:evan: you know, eventually the dam will break.
Speaker:Rusteen: And decidedly at the end of the movie, she is still eating her chicken stew,
Speaker:Rusteen: right? Like through the course of this, she has not become a different person,
Speaker:Rusteen: as far as like, you know, eating meat goes.
Speaker:Rusteen: But she has, you know, regained that balance with her environment.
Speaker:Rusteen: And so I think that's the message of the movie, right, is that it's OK for us
Speaker:Rusteen: to enjoy the foods that we like.
Speaker:Rusteen: It's just about living in harmony with the world around us and getting outside
Speaker:Rusteen: of the hellish confines of what Wall Street determines we should be eating.
Speaker:evan: Yeah.
Speaker:bill: I mean, just like from the very beginning, like the very start of the movie,
Speaker:bill: when she talks about like the starvation, it's like that in and of itself is
Speaker:bill: a false premise because there is enough food.
Speaker:bill: It's like, there's enough food. You just hoard it.
Speaker:bill: How many millions of pounds of food are thrown away or left to rot on the vine?
Speaker:bill: Not even thrown away. It's not even processed. It's literally left,
Speaker:bill: it's left to rot on the vine and with armed guards to prevent people from picking it.
Speaker:ward: It's like 40 million tons in the US alone that's wasted for food.
Speaker:bill: I thought it was 30, but yeah, yeah, that's, yeah.
Speaker:bill: I knew it was somewhere in there.
Speaker:Rusteen: Not to talk about a different movie, but that's what Snowpiercer's all about, right? Yeah.
Speaker:Rusteen: The front of the train has high-grade sushi, and they've got beautiful farms
Speaker:Rusteen: filled with organic produce, and the back of the train gets their gelatinous cockroach bars.
Speaker:bill: It's almost like Bong Joon-ho has like a, he's got like an ideology of some
Speaker:bill: kind, and he's got, it's almost like he's got some kind of like thing going on.
Speaker:Rusteen: I mean, he's a real one. I don't know if you guys have talked about any of his
Speaker:Rusteen: other movies or anything, but he was throwing Molotov cocktails at the South
Speaker:Rusteen: Korean military as a college kid.
Speaker:Rusteen: So if anybody believes in the power of righteous violence, I do think it's Director Bong.
Speaker:bill: He just, I think.
Speaker:Rusteen: Also sees that a lot of the time the person holding the gun is just as likely to get shot.
Speaker:alex: I mean, him and Park Chan-wook are like the members of like the most leftist
Speaker:alex: Korean party, South Korean party there are.
Speaker:alex: We won't talk about Park Chan-wook's WGA status, but...
Speaker:Rusteen: He was railroaded. that's my theory.
Speaker:evan: Yeah I think on this we've done I've done The Host Snowpiercer and Parasite
Speaker:evan: the other three I've done I guess like the the big one at some point I'd like
Speaker:evan: to do Memories of Murder that movie is such a so good.
Speaker:alex: Have you guys done any Park Chan walk?
Speaker:bill: Yes we did old boy.
Speaker:alex: I would go through, if you're going to do more Bong Joon-ho,
Speaker:alex: I would do more Park Chan-wook because it feels like there are two directors
Speaker:alex: that are really in conversation with each other. And you'll often see Parasite
Speaker:alex: to me is like Bong Joon-ho being like, I'm going to try and do a Park Chan-wook movie.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, I love his new one. No other choice was absolutely robbed from getting
Speaker:evan: not a single award, even a nomination.
Speaker:Rusteen: And if we want to talk about the power of violence, I mean, the other two films
Speaker:Rusteen: in the Vengeance trilogy, Sympathy for Mr.
Speaker:Rusteen: Vengeance and Lady Vengeance are both very much all about what does it take
Speaker:Rusteen: from us to, you know, enact violence on people who deserve it.
Speaker:Rusteen: Right. Is that the morally correct thing to do or not?
Speaker:alex: I mean, no other choice feels like him trying to do a Bong Joon-ho movie.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:evan: Yeah. I could see that, yeah. I think he produced some of Bong Joon-ho's films too, I think.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah, Park was one of the first to really blow up on the international stage,
Speaker:Rusteen: and he brought Bong up with him.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, I just saw he has two new films that have been announced,
Speaker:evan: but I don't know. I haven't looked into them deeply, but I know that's a whole
Speaker:evan: other thing. But yeah, we should definitely do another.
Speaker:evan: I definitely really want to do No Other Choice.
Speaker:alex: Also, I mean, it's a TV show, but The Sympathizer is worth hours of analysis.
Speaker:alex: It's really good. Where the only white people in it is Robert Downey Jr.
Speaker:alex: as different faces of capital. It's very good.
Speaker:ward: Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker:evan: Damn, I have not seen that.
Speaker:ward: You haven't seen it?
Speaker:evan: No. I've heard of it.
Speaker:ward: It was like widely under-advocized.
Speaker:evan: It was only a couple of years ago.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah, it just came out like two years ago, I think. It was Downey Jr.'s first
Speaker:Rusteen: like post-Oppenheimer project, but there's just so much TV out there, people didn't watch it.
Speaker:bill: Yeah, there really is. And it's like so much, and it's hard even,
Speaker:bill: like I started watching Widow's Bay because Ward mentioned it.
Speaker:bill: I didn't even know that it fucking existed.
Speaker:evan: No, I mentioned it.
Speaker:bill: Oh yeah, you mentioned it.
Speaker:Rusteen: Credit where credit's due.
Speaker:evan: It is true.
Speaker:bill: But you've watched it on board's server, I believe.
Speaker:evan: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those, yeah, it's one of those things.
Speaker:evan: There are so many, you know, like, prestige shows that things get lost now.
Speaker:bill: And networks, platforms. Not even networks, platforms. Yeah.
Speaker:evan: Yeah um but i don't did uh alex or rusty did you have any other notes or things
Speaker:evan: we didn't get to on uh that we may have missed or.
Speaker:Rusteen: Points um i think the the only other thing.
Speaker:Rusteen: To kind of talk about is just like the the fucking sound when they're walking
Speaker:Rusteen: out of the slaughterhouse and you just hear,
Speaker:Rusteen: the gunshots ringing forever and just knowing that that is happening like she
Speaker:Rusteen: will for the rest of her life know that that gun is firing every minute for the rest of her life.
Speaker:Rusteen: But I think the thing that Bong is really smart about is that nobody who works
Speaker:Rusteen: in the slaughterhouse is those people are all working their jobs.
Speaker:Rusteen: It's the only time we hear like we hear like Spanish in the slaughterhouse. Right.
Speaker:Rusteen: And when she shows the picture of her with Okja, the guy holding the gun stops.
Speaker:Rusteen: Like he recognizes that there's something important between the two of them
Speaker:Rusteen: and he has enough humanity to know that like I shouldn't do this.
Speaker:Rusteen: But then the boss shows up and orders him to do it. Right.
Speaker:Rusteen: And so I think what Bong is showing us is how, you know, we're all just following
Speaker:Rusteen: orders under capitalism.
Speaker:Rusteen: And it's making us do these inhumane things that we know deep inside of us are wrong.
Speaker:Rusteen: And I think a lesser filmmaker would have villainized, turned the people inside
Speaker:Rusteen: of the slaughterhouse into monsters in as much the same way as like Nancy is a monster.
Speaker:Rusteen: And he decidedly does not do that and allows them to stay human as much as Misha
Speaker:Rusteen: is. And that's that's why he's the goat.
Speaker:alex: Yeah i guess in the inverse of that the funniest scene to me in the movie is
Speaker:alex: when they're doing the uh the presentation
Speaker:alex: in new york and at some point there's like a rotating green uh,
Speaker:alex: that Jake Gyllenhaal is just sitting on and spinning and it's never really acknowledged.
Speaker:alex: As it rises. I did not bring that up on top of it. And just spinning.
Speaker:alex: And it's not acknowledged. There's no
Speaker:alex: joke. It's just him spinning in the background. It's a really good idea.
Speaker:Rusteen: The other thing I noticed for the first time in this is when Lucy is practicing
Speaker:Rusteen: her signature, she holds her pencil like a fucking toddler.
Speaker:Rusteen: She's just like holding it like a fist and doing the most childish signature
Speaker:Rusteen: you've ever seen with like little eyes on the Y.
Speaker:Rusteen: And it's like, these are the people in charge of society. They are literal children.
Speaker:Rusteen: They have not developed emotionally beyond like 10 years old.
Speaker:evan: Everyone's 12.
Speaker:ward: I've seen several people that write like that in real life. And it is beyond
Speaker:ward: me on like how they got to that point in their writing ability and skills.
Speaker:ward: It's like, did you guys not get the little thingy that goes on the pencil that
Speaker:ward: like shows you how to properly grip a pencil?
Speaker:Rusteen: Well, it's like seeing the Epstein emails from the CEOs that all like have zero
Speaker:Rusteen: grammatical syntax and are just riddled with spelling errors like these people
Speaker:Rusteen: just do not are not literate.
Speaker:Rusteen: Like when you reach that level of privilege, you don't need to learn how to read or write anymore.
Speaker:bill: I actually think that. OK, so I'm not going to talk shit about people who can't
Speaker:bill: who don't hold their pencils normal.
Speaker:bill: I guess that was me talking.
Speaker:bill: OK, let me back. but I'm not going to talk pencil people.
Speaker:evan: Jeez.
Speaker:bill: I will fucking talk shit about veganism all fucking day.
Speaker:ward: I'm coming for the pencil holders. All right.
Speaker:bill: It makes me angry. Um, it's a class fucking it's a class. It's a class is fucking
Speaker:bill: idiot. I fucking hate. Okay.
Speaker:bill: Anyway, I'm not going to talk to my people who can't, who don't hold pencils the way I hold pencils.
Speaker:bill: Okay. I'm not going to do that. But what I actually think the key to that is
Speaker:bill: that I actually think that That was a shot at Donald Trump.
Speaker:bill: Because if we fast forward,
Speaker:bill: I believe it's after that, when they have the meeting, and Giancarlo Esposito,
Speaker:bill: when they basically are all flailing,
Speaker:bill: and he walks away to the cappuccino machine, and he starts to make cappuccino, right?
Speaker:bill: And then he says to Lucy, he's like, this is what you're going to do,
Speaker:bill: right? This is what you thought of, right?
Speaker:ward: Such a power move.
Speaker:bill: Right. that's the whole thing it's not it is the fact that like i honestly do think that,
Speaker:bill: that was a shot at the the mentality like the other day i was on the phone with
Speaker:bill: like you know my mother and she's like you know donald trump and i'm like he's
Speaker:bill: not different and he's not the real problem,
Speaker:bill: it's the system and that's gian carlo esposito is the system and the people behind the scenes
Speaker:bill: that are savvy and do know these things and pull the strings and then put people
Speaker:bill: like that in power so that you can look at them and go, that person's bad and
Speaker:bill: stupid and ha ha, Elon Musk is a dummy,
Speaker:bill: Donald Trump is a stupid person.
Speaker:bill: While behind the scenes, you have the system doing all of those things.
Speaker:bill: And it's like, it's not the idiot practicing their signature.
Speaker:bill: That is the problem, you know?
Speaker:bill: They want you to think that that's the problem because then people like Giancarlo
Speaker:bill: Esposito are in the background. Like, you know, they're the ones profiting from
Speaker:bill: pulling the strings, actually keeping it going.
Speaker:bill: And you never get eyeballs on them and go, wait a minute, that motherfucker's got to go down.
Speaker:evan: Well, they show that scene when Tilda Swinton is giving the speech in the opening.
Speaker:evan: They pan to him standing above.
Speaker:bill: Yes.
Speaker:evan: Voicing the speech as if, you know, he wrote it. he's the one pulling the strings
Speaker:evan: above her literally so i mean.
Speaker:alex: I i definitely.
Speaker:Rusteen: Throughout he's undermining her of like being nancy's mole in all of her meetings
Speaker:Rusteen: helping to bring her back into
Speaker:Rusteen: the leadership of this company like those people want the evil people in.
Speaker:alex: Charge i mean it's always it's like a repudiation of like whatever woke capital
Speaker:alex: exists when 2017 came out is now fully dead uh,
Speaker:alex: i also while we're talking about the opening scene my other major notice i want
Speaker:alex: to talk about is that even though it is the fake origin for okja okja was still,
Speaker:alex: found in south america and then brought to arizona like it's it's it is capitalism
Speaker:alex: of we're gonna take the stuff from south america and then take it through the
Speaker:alex: border and that's how we're gonna make all this money that even though that's
Speaker:alex: the fake story that still is a reflection of just how american capitalism works.
Speaker:ward: Oh yeah no it's story of colonization tales all the time it has to be.
Speaker:alex: Also, what's up with Bong Joon-ho in Twins? I feel like he's like a big thing.
Speaker:alex: It's like Twins of just like the actor playing. Yeah.
Speaker:Rusteen: One thing he mentioned was like a big part of making this movie was just he
Speaker:Rusteen: wanted to work with Tilda Swinton again. And so why not have two of her maybe?
Speaker:alex: And so let's have, I want to really work with Robert Pattinson. Let's have 200 of him.
Speaker:evan: Yeah.
Speaker:bill: Yeah. Honestly, I don't really see an issue here. And we'll make one of the
Speaker:bill: Tilda Swintons Parker Posey.
Speaker:bill: I never had a chance to work with Parker Posey, so I'll make Tilda Swinton Parker Posey.
Speaker:evan: Exactly he does have like a lot of repeat people in a lot of his movies especially
Speaker:evan: the first few with uh like memories of murder i think the host is all and parasite 2 even,
Speaker:evan: like uh what is it song kang ho he's in like four or five of his films i like
Speaker:evan: that i always like that when directors have their like group of people they like to work with.
Speaker:Rusteen: I mean it helps when one of them is like the greatest actor of his entire country
Speaker:Rusteen: yeah exactly i was about to say one of the best actors of all time he's not.
Speaker:ward: In just a lot of these films he's in a lot of films a period because he's fucking great yes yes uh.
Speaker:Rusteen: The only other note that we didn't really touch on was just kind of like the cinematography uh,
Speaker:Rusteen: i think that they do this really amazing thing of like the film being like so
Speaker:Rusteen: colorful but then when they go into the slaughterhouse like those fluorescent lights just drain
Speaker:Rusteen: all of the life out from all the characters and it's just this like sickly blue
Speaker:Rusteen: and um this was shot by darius konji who's like a famous like iranian french
Speaker:Rusteen: cinematographer he shot in,
Speaker:Rusteen: just last year alone he shot mickey 17 eddington and marty supreme which is
Speaker:Rusteen: just like such a fucking triple threat of films to shoot uh,
Speaker:Rusteen: and and he does really great work here's getting to shoot basically like a action
Speaker:Rusteen: movie which he never really gets to do didn't.
Speaker:evan: He do uncut gems too.
Speaker:Rusteen: He did uncut gems too as well yeah josh safty kept him in the divorce.
Speaker:evan: Like and i almost i always it's funny you mentioned well yeah like that's like
Speaker:evan: the frenetic pace of those different marty supreme uncut gems yeah that's.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah that whole chase sequence feels like a warm-up to a lot of the chase sequences
Speaker:Rusteen: in marty supreme as she's like running through the streets and down into the the underground mall,
Speaker:Rusteen: really reminded me of Marty running through the streets of New York in that film.
Speaker:alex: Rustin, you don't want to talk about Bardo, False Chronicle of a Handful of
Speaker:alex: Truths, his other movie of the last two years?
Speaker:Rusteen: You know, I haven't seen it, so I'm not going to.
Speaker:alex: I'm happy not. Speaking of Netflix movies that don't exist.
Speaker:evan: I don't think I've ever seen that. Actually, I don't even know if I've ever heard of it.
Speaker:alex: It's the latest In a Ritu movie, and I will say I'm not a fan of In a Ritu,
Speaker:alex: and we'll leave it there.
Speaker:Rusteen: I'm quite curious to see Digger. That's all I'll say. I'm very curious to see that one.
Speaker:evan: I think I saw Babel and just gave up from there.
Speaker:Rusteen: I liked Birdman, but I'm afraid to go back and watch it.
Speaker:bill: I liked Birdman. My wife hated it.
Speaker:ward: Yeah, I like Birdman. I'm also afraid to go back and watch it.
Speaker:evan: Actually, The Revenant was actually pretty.
Speaker:bill: I love The Revenant.
Speaker:ward: I wasn't too big a fan of three hours of heavy mouth breathing. I wasn't into that.
Speaker:alex: I didn't even talk about the Pandora's box on this one.
Speaker:Rusteen: I'm sorry. If you want to hear our thoughts about In Yuritu,
Speaker:Rusteen: you can listen to our podcast, In Yuritu, in which we talk about all of Alexander
Speaker:Rusteen: In Yuritu's films, two minutes at a time.
Speaker:evan: What's funny is that all of the ones we just mentioned were divisive between
Speaker:evan: the five of us. I hate it. I loved it. So that just seems to be the...
Speaker:evan: The vibe he gives off with his films. But for the Andorx, did you have any,
Speaker:evan: I think you mentioned at the beginning, but do you want to remind anyone of
Speaker:evan: what, what episode are you on right now, approximately in the Andorx series?
Speaker:Rusteen: So if this episode's coming out around 4th of July weekend, it's actually a
Speaker:Rusteen: very special episode because it is the debut of everyone's favorite anarchist
Speaker:Rusteen: revolutionary Saw Gerrera on Andorx.
Speaker:Rusteen: we're going to be covering.
Speaker:alex: And two tubes.
Speaker:Rusteen: Everybody's yes his right hand man,
Speaker:Rusteen: it's the very end of the first episode of the Narkina arc,
Speaker:Rusteen: and so we are now deep into Kino Loy season and
Speaker:Rusteen: so we're going to talk a lot of Andy Serkis and so you can check that out at
Speaker:Rusteen: andorkspod.com we also have a Patreon where we're covering detours of stuff related to and or.
Speaker:alex: Yes we just went deep on uh the star wars uh saw guerrera throughout the star
Speaker:alex: wars properties and how he evolved as a character and how he's how how he presents
Speaker:alex: differently depending on the age range of the product but.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah and and we'll soon be talking about uh andy circus's uh,
Speaker:Rusteen: directed Animal Farm movie as well. So just to get a real range of the kinds
Speaker:Rusteen: of stuff we're getting to talk about in our detours.
Speaker:alex: About Trotsky's Andy Serkis.
Speaker:bill: Would you like to have Evan on for that special Patreon episode?
Speaker:Rusteen: I watched that movie.
Speaker:bill: He's the only one that tortured himself by watching that movie.
Speaker:evan: My God. We were doing like a special episode and we were talking about it.
Speaker:evan: I was talking about it and just...
Speaker:evan: I told him I don't think I could actually watch it again to talk about it in
Speaker:evan: detail because it was it was it was rough.
Speaker:bill: I maintain that it is our duty to do so and we're also refuse to do it.
Speaker:ward: It's like our whole thing we're like no.
Speaker:evan: I have the.
Speaker:Rusteen: Reason to have a podcast is just to make people watch stuff that you want to make them watch right so.
Speaker:evan: What's more.
Speaker:alex: Cursed andy circus wanting people left this project and he had forced into angel
Speaker:alex: studios or literally the 1950s version which was produced by the cia which is
Speaker:alex: the which which way modern man which is worse.
Speaker:evan: Yeah yeah six one way half a dozen yeah exactly exactly no it's it's like famously
Speaker:evan: i watch will be like this movie looks terrible who would watch that and then i'll watch it,
Speaker:evan: you know i'll just fuck you know yeah we did not watch we did do an episode
Speaker:evan: on melania but we didn't actually watch melania it was more of an april fool's
Speaker:evan: joke because we couldn't even bring ourselves yeah we just.
Speaker:ward: Talked about state flags instead that's great.
Speaker:evan: Yeah because i don't even think i could torture myself with that.
Speaker:ward: What state won hey apparently there's a new.
Speaker:evan: Worst movie we didn't really pick wasn't i what wow did we have a winner what
Speaker:evan: we thought was the best state do Do you remember?
Speaker:bill: Yeah, there were definitely, you know, ones that we liked.
Speaker:ward: And there were standouts. I don't know if we played.
Speaker:evan: California was definitely up near the top of, like, states.
Speaker:bill: California was up in the top. Well, we all did really like Arizona. I do remember that.
Speaker:evan: We did not like Maryland, which is my home state.
Speaker:bill: We also really liked Ohio because it's not a rectangle.
Speaker:ward: We liked Oregon because it was the only double-sided one, right?
Speaker:bill: Yes.
Speaker:ward: Yeah.
Speaker:bill: It got props for that. It is kind of ugly, but it got props for that.
Speaker:ward: But it's got a beaver on the back.
Speaker:bill: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:ward: And it's the only one that has a back.
Speaker:alex: The new Minnesota flag kind of whips. I really like it.
Speaker:evan: Oh. Did we talk about that? We must have.
Speaker:bill: Oh, yes.
Speaker:alex: It's like shaped like Minnesota on the left, but there's a star on it.
Speaker:bill: Yeah. That one is also... We actually... I think... I don't...
Speaker:bill: We skipped that one. But it is one of the nicer ones. It's a clean look.
Speaker:Rusteen: I don't know. It's giving Aldi to me.
Speaker:alex: Well, don't forget that Aldi on the left is the shape of Minnesota. That's why it's cool.
Speaker:ward: That's true.
Speaker:alex: It's such a little broken shape.
Speaker:bill: The important thing is that we just thoroughly trashed Washington's flag for one.
Speaker:evan: Yeah. There is definitely.
Speaker:alex: Are there flags in Star Wars? Like, is there a flag of a planet?
Speaker:bill: That's a great question.
Speaker:Rusteen: Yeah, the Gorman have a flag at the very least. So I have to imagine the other planets have flags.
Speaker:Rusteen: Let's look up. Are we going to look up flags on Wikipedia now?
Speaker:alex: We'll save that for our.
Speaker:evan: I'm already there. I'm already there.
Speaker:ward: What's the Tusken Raiders flag?
Speaker:bill: They don't have a flag.
Speaker:evan: So it does look like certain places. They move from Oakland.
Speaker:alex: They moved to Oak and they played the same flag.
Speaker:bill: Jesus Christ. That is, even I got that joke and I hate sports.
Speaker:evan: Alderaan had a flag, it looks like. A few of them did.
Speaker:Rusteen: If you want deep dives into Wookiepedias, come join us on AndorksPod.
Speaker:Rusteen: You can find us on social media at AndorksPod.
Speaker:alex: And as someone who hosts a Star Wars podcast, getting basic information about
Speaker:alex: Star Wars wrong, you'll really enjoy it and can just yell at me remotely.
Speaker:evan: The one fan base that you will definitely anger or anger somebody i suppose.
Speaker:Rusteen: We've got leftists and star wars fans so it's a real cat and dog fight.
Speaker:evan: Going on in our who's more annoying yeah yeah,
Speaker:evan: awesome well uh alex and ristine thank you for uh coming on to uh talk about
Speaker:evan: okja and everyone should go check out your podcast where you all the podcast
Speaker:evan: places as well as Left of the Jector.
Speaker:evan: And thanks again for coming on.
Speaker:Rusteen: Thanks for having us.
Speaker:evan: Of course. And we will, for myself, Evan, Bill Ward, we will catch you next time.
Speaker:alex: We're not putting on all of our balaclavas like the post-credits scene.
Speaker:ward: I like that they brought an extra one.
Speaker:alex: Just in case a comrade.
Speaker:ward: Yeah. I don't know if they did, but like, you know, a comrade might forget or
Speaker:ward: you might make a new comrade along the way.
Speaker:bill: Yeah.
Speaker:ward: So, like, I like that they had the extra.
Speaker:Rusteen: That solidarity.
Speaker:bill: I think they all had an extra one on them just in case.
Speaker:ward: Yeah, I feel, you know what I mean? Just in case somebody forgot. Or you make a friend.
Speaker:bill: Yeah.
