Episode 236
Black Panther (2018) & Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022)
We are joined this week by author, screen writer, and friend of the show, Briana Cox to talk about Ryan Coogler's endeavors under the banner of the Marvel Cinematic universe: Black Panther 1 and 2. Both movies feature Chadwick Boseman, Michael B. Jordan, Lupita Nyong'o, Danai Gurira, Angela Bassett, Forest Whitaker, Letitia Wright, Martin Freeman, among many others. Looking back we discuss the impact the first film had on the culture, our love/hate relationship with the first film and the failures of the second, how both movies sugar coat the CIA's history of violating the sovereignty of African nations, and one of the most important thing the movies did was open mainstream audiences to the beauty of Afrofuturism.
To check out some of the works mentioned during the episode, follow these links:
- Born in Flames
- Space is the Place
- Naked Reality
- Beasts of the Southern Wild
- Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
- Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse
- Into the Mother Lands: An Afrofuturist TTRPG
Guest Links
Left of the Projector Links
Left of the Projector on Instagram
Left of the Projector on Patreon
Left of the Projector on Threadless
Host Links
Transcript
Track 2: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Bill,
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Speaker:Track 2: This week on Left to the Projector, we won't be discussing any Academy Award-winning
Speaker:Track 2: film or something you can tell your film bros you just heard about.
Speaker:Track 2: Instead, we'll be talking about Black Panther and Black Panther 2, Wakanda Forever.
Speaker:Track 2: Both films are directed by Ryan Coogler, who turned around three years after
Speaker:Track 2: the second of these films and made the record-nominated film, Sinners.
Speaker:Track 2: Of course, this film does star Chadwick Boseman, first in piece, Michael B.
Speaker:Track 2: Jordan, Angela Bassett, Lupita Nyong'o, Daniel Guerra, Martin Freeman, and many more.
Speaker:Track 2: The second stars Angela Bassett, Leticia Wright, Danai Gurira, among others.
Speaker:Track 2: Our guest today is Brianna Cox, returning friend of the show,
Speaker:Track 2: previously from our A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night episode.
Speaker:Track 2: Brianna is a screenwriter and author of an upcoming book, Indigent,
Speaker:Track 2: which releases in March 2026.
Speaker:Track 2: Of course, as always, my co-host, Evan.
Speaker:Track 2: Ward is still tracking down Gareth Edwards. Welcome to the show, Brianna.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, thank you for having me on again. Yeah, I don't want to say I'm excited
Speaker:Track 3: to talk about this one, but it will be interesting.
Speaker:Track 2: We're going to have fun. We're going to have fun.
Speaker:Track 2: We chose this partially to—there's a lot going on in the world,
Speaker:Track 2: and, you know, sometimes we want to talk about things just to shit talk them,
Speaker:Track 2: and that's partially why we chose these today.
Speaker:Track 2: To talk about some things.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah and for people who don't maybe forgot the
Speaker:Track 1: first one came out in 2018 and then the second
Speaker:Track 1: one four years later in 2022 and as
Speaker:Track 1: people obviously know they're part of the marvel cinematic
Speaker:Track 1: universe which i think now
Speaker:Track 1: has got to be up to like mid 40s in terms of
Speaker:Track 1: total numbers and the one thing i'm curious for both of you too and maybe thinking
Speaker:Track 1: about the first one especially it was probably it was a big deal when it came
Speaker:Track 1: out even though there had been a bunch of other marvel movies it broke records
Speaker:Track 1: i think it made back its budget like the opening weekend and the budget was
Speaker:Track 1: 200 million dollars so you could see how well the film did,
Speaker:Track 1: i'm just sort of like think about when you saw it the first time and you know
Speaker:Track 1: obviously we'll get into the politics of it and what is and isn't good about
Speaker:Track 1: it perhaps but just wondering like as a cultural phenomenon and like your memory of it like was it,
Speaker:Track 1: Like, do you look back on it fondly?
Speaker:Track 2: Uh, Brianna, I'm leaving this to you to start.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. I feel like for me, I, yeah, I've been like more and more vindicated with
Speaker:Track 3: how I feel about this movie.
Speaker:Track 3: The more time has passed because I watched it like back in 2018 and like,
Speaker:Track 3: I kind of just thought it was like, okay.
Speaker:Track 3: And kind of mid to begin with. And I felt very bad about that because it was
Speaker:Track 3: a very like culturally important movie and a very relevant movie.
Speaker:Track 3: And I was kind of just sitting there like, oh, am I just a pretentious film
Speaker:Track 3: bro who like watched too many Hiroshi Tejikahara movies? And I just like can't enjoy a fun movie now.
Speaker:Track 3: Is that the only reason why I'm disliking this?
Speaker:Track 3: And then like, what, like 10, 9 months later at the end of the year,
Speaker:Track 3: like Into the Spider-Verse came out. And I loved that movie.
Speaker:Track 3: So I was like, all right, this isn't just me having superhero fatigue.
Speaker:Track 3: This isn't just me like not wanting another like blockbuster superhero movie
Speaker:Track 3: because like I love this other example.
Speaker:Track 3: And then the second Black Panther movie came out and I also disliked that one.
Speaker:Track 3: And he's like, oh, maybe now it's superhero fatigue.
Speaker:Track 3: And then the second Spider-Verse movie came out and I loved that one as well.
Speaker:Track 2: I'm struggling with the fact that Into the Spider-Verse came out in 2018.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, it was. I looked that up to see the timeline, and it's crazy, actually.
Speaker:Track 3: And I was trying to just parse out, why do I not like these movies?
Speaker:Track 3: Do I just have a weird grudge against Ryan Coogler, where his second movie wasn't
Speaker:Track 3: as good as I wanted it to be, so now I just don't like his stuff on principle?
Speaker:Track 3: But then sinners came out last year and that's like
Speaker:Track 3: an immaculate movie and it's also like a
Speaker:Track 3: speculative fiction four quadrants big budget
Speaker:Track 3: blockbuster movie with a majority black cast that came
Speaker:Track 3: out in like the first quarter of the year that like
Speaker:Track 3: broke records and was very culturally important so i
Speaker:Track 3: don't think i'm being a stick in the mud now when i say i don't like black panther
Speaker:Track 3: just with all of that stuff that happened afterwards because like yeah sinners
Speaker:Track 3: is awesome I'm making up for not liking Black Panther by obsessing over that
Speaker:Track 3: movie and thinking it's amazing.
Speaker:Track 2: You know, it definitely did feel like, to be fair, when I saw this the first
Speaker:Track 2: time, I did really enjoy it.
Speaker:Track 2: I do think, even at the beginning, I was like, there are aspects of this that
Speaker:Track 2: take away from it, that take it from what I thought it could have been.
Speaker:Track 2: And it was not, you know, there are detractions in the original movie,
Speaker:Track 2: but it definitely felt like you couldn't talk bad about this movie.
Speaker:Track 2: This movie was fucking like, it just, it was crazy.
Speaker:Track 2: Cultural bombshell the wakanda forever
Speaker:Track 2: thing before the second movie you know like all
Speaker:Track 2: of that it was everywhere you couldn't you couldn't say boo about this movie
Speaker:Track 2: people loved this and it got high praise but as time has gone by i definitely
Speaker:Track 2: have come to see more and more of its flaws,
Speaker:Track 2: but especially the second movie, which I absolutely despise,
Speaker:Track 2: which I really feel like taint,
Speaker:Track 2: even taints, whatever positives there were about this movie,
Speaker:Track 2: I feel like the second movie almost detracts from them, but it's also really
Speaker:Track 2: bittersweet because for I think the, the people that made it,
Speaker:Track 2: because having just like, I literally just finished rewatching it like three,
Speaker:Track 2: like two or three hours ago that the second movie is clearly.
Speaker:Track 2: Clearly like,
Speaker:Track 2: an emotional endeavor for everyone involved about the loss of chadwick boseman like that movie is,
Speaker:Track 2: partly a true like a part of
Speaker:Track 2: the grieving process you you could tell the people involved in this that was
Speaker:Track 2: part of their grieving process making that movie and i don't know whether that
Speaker:Track 2: was a good thing or a bad thing but seeing it again and thinking about that
Speaker:Track 2: i'm like i almost feel bad talking shit about this that's like going to someone's
Speaker:Track 2: funeral and being like talking to like Like, they're, like,
Speaker:Track 2: dead, like, you know, like, they're living, like, relatively,
Speaker:Track 2: like, listen, man, you're not crying right away.
Speaker:Track 1: I remember seeing the first one and walking out of the theater being like,
Speaker:Track 1: that was, you know, kind of how I feel.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, most of the MCU movies now are just like, I guess that was a movie.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, it was fine. It exists. It's fine.
Speaker:Track 1: But I remember walking out of Black Panther being like, that was amazing. Like, you know, so cool.
Speaker:Track 1: And it had, like, you know, a decent underlying message, although it wasn't perfect.
Speaker:Track 1: And then in the times that I've seen it since
Speaker:Track 1: then I just sort of think to myself one I was kind of wrong at the time being
Speaker:Track 1: like it wasn't as good as I remember it but I think my memory of it being so
Speaker:Track 1: good was just like the atmosphere the theater is completely full everyone was
Speaker:Track 1: really hyped up and so it was more so the,
Speaker:Track 1: everything around it that made it good, in quotes, than it was so much like
Speaker:Track 1: that the movie itself was.
Speaker:Track 1: And so, unlike you, Brianna, I definitely wasn't critical of it at the time.
Speaker:Track 1: I can admit my wrong there.
Speaker:Track 1: And watching it now, I just think about how there are potentially great messages
Speaker:Track 1: to it that are undermined by other aspects of it that just,
Speaker:Track 1: I don't know if it's a result of it just being an MCU movie and there's only
Speaker:Track 1: so much good messaging they can really impart,
Speaker:Track 1: especially when you have military presidents and the CIA is in it and all this stuff.
Speaker:Track 1: So we can talk about the, you know, like what the issues we have with it or
Speaker:Track 1: like the kind of the crux of it and then maybe go into some more of it.
Speaker:Track 1: But I don't know, like Brianna, like what you, when you saw it then.
Speaker:Track 2: I want to hear that. I want to hear Brianna's like initial takeaway because
Speaker:Track 2: she came away from it like, this is bad.
Speaker:Track 2: I want to know, like, I want to hear that.
Speaker:Track 1: What ostracized you from your community?
Speaker:Track 3: I know there was there was one person i told that i thought this was made when
Speaker:Track 3: it came out and like no one else because.
Speaker:Track 2: That's what it was like right it was like people fucking love this movie.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah it was like i remember one
Speaker:Track 3: of the things i said coming out of it
Speaker:Track 3: was like wow this was probably a really good treatment
Speaker:Track 3: and like not a very good script
Speaker:Track 3: because like all of the things that i
Speaker:Track 3: dislike about the movie like i
Speaker:Track 3: blame firmly like it
Speaker:Track 3: being an mcu or disney production because like once again ryan coogler made
Speaker:Track 3: fruitvale station first he made sinners like seven eight years later like he
Speaker:Track 3: knows what he's doing thematically like he can make something that is like coherent in that way.
Speaker:Track 3: And just my main issue with the first Black Panther is that like all of the
Speaker:Track 3: coherence it could have had thematically is undermined by like it needing to fit into the MCEU.
Speaker:Track 3: Where it's like, oh, it has to like have this certain structure.
Speaker:Track 3: It has to have this certain tone.
Speaker:Track 3: And like, yeah, I get it. Like if I was in charge of the Marvel Cinematic Universe,
Speaker:Track 3: I would also want people to know that they're watching a Marvel movie.
Speaker:Track 3: Like I would also want it to be consistent so that like people get that it's
Speaker:Track 3: like one continuous story.
Speaker:Track 3: But also like the themes
Speaker:Track 3: and content of black panther is like so antithetical
Speaker:Track 3: to most of the other marvel movies that
Speaker:Track 3: like trying to fit it in to that
Speaker:Track 3: like structure to make sure it fits in with
Speaker:Track 3: the other films is like trying to square
Speaker:Track 3: a circle and i just felt like i was watching a movie where ryan kugler was trying
Speaker:Track 3: to square a circle for like two hours and that was like my main takeaway like
Speaker:Track 3: i like what ryan is trying to do that marvel presumably won't let him do to the fullest extent i.
Speaker:Track 2: Was more appreciative of the positive aspects of it when it
Speaker:Track 2: first but like as time has gone by like no you're you're absolutely right it's
Speaker:Track 2: impossible to look away from those things like the shoehorning of martin freeman's
Speaker:Track 2: car martin freeman's character represents basically everything that is wrong
Speaker:Track 2: in that movie and like the fact that like obviously like Disney as a corporation had,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, felt the need, like, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: It was required of them, basically, I guess, to make sure that it fits certain
Speaker:Track 2: things and it fit a certain narrative.
Speaker:Track 2: And that narrative is that, you know, actually imperialism is okay sometimes
Speaker:Track 2: if the right person does it.
Speaker:Track 3: It's like there are good white people who are cool and fun and they're allowed
Speaker:Track 3: into the cookout and their name is Martin Freeman.
Speaker:Track 3: And imperialism is cool sometimes. in that dream.
Speaker:Track 2: Not all CIA agents are bad. Like, no, actually they are. They're all bad.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. My first note that I wrote, so I wrote like notes by in a notebook when
Speaker:Track 1: I watched the movie, but then I wrote just like a couple down.
Speaker:Track 1: And the first one I wrote was, it could have been a real good story of anti-imperialism
Speaker:Track 1: and colonialism, but then it's undercut by the collaboration with the CIA.
Speaker:Track 1: And I think it's impossible.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, I bet if you went through every single Marvel movie, they are...
Speaker:Track 1: The CIA or the FBI or the U.S.
Speaker:Track 1: Government or Avengers or S.H.I.E.L.D. or whatever code you want to give to
Speaker:Track 1: the good guys of America in a positive light.
Speaker:Track 1: They're never viewed in a negative way.
Speaker:Track 1: And in this one, you have, you know, the Wakanda as perhaps having this message
Speaker:Track 1: at the beginning of, you know, it's this place in Africa that's actually rich.
Speaker:Track 1: Like you think about all the exploitation of africa in the real world and you
Speaker:Track 1: know africa is rich it's just that america and the west steals this wealth from
Speaker:Track 1: them and like they could have this wealth but you know it's um it's okay it's
Speaker:Track 1: the cia and the u.s eventually gets to you know do a little little uh imperialism for a treat.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah there was like kind of like the ghost of
Speaker:Track 3: the winter soldier movie is like hanging over
Speaker:Track 3: black panther the entire time i saw it the first time
Speaker:Track 3: where like they got away with doing way
Speaker:Track 3: more critical commentary than i think anyone would let kugler do so like winter
Speaker:Track 3: soldier was the closest they ever got to being like maybe government entities
Speaker:Track 3: aren't all like cool superhero adjacent people which yeah black panther was not allowed to do it.
Speaker:Track 2: Was still in the end the winter soldier it still was, it's just some bad apples.
Speaker:Track 2: The message still was, fundamentally, these systems are okay.
Speaker:Track 2: That was just some bad apples. There are some bad actors.
Speaker:Track 2: But overall, S.H.I.E.L.D. is fine. It's just there were some bad people.
Speaker:Track 2: Some bad people got in there.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, I know we jumped right into the movie. Just-
Speaker:Track 1: very very briefly for maybe someone who
Speaker:Track 1: hasn't seen this since 2018 or like you're one of the few people
Speaker:Track 1: who hasn't seen this movie essentially they're
Speaker:Track 1: introducing you to the country
Speaker:Track 1: of wakanda as this place that has a metal
Speaker:Track 1: that's more rare and only until movie
Speaker:Track 1: number two is the only country in place that has vibranium
Speaker:Track 1: and it's enabling them to create technology that
Speaker:Track 1: is greater than anyone in the world and they're
Speaker:Track 1: able to put a shield around their country essentially so the
Speaker:Track 1: world thinks they're this poor african farming country
Speaker:Track 1: when in fact they're like the most technologically advanced country on earth
Speaker:Track 1: and we have the death of the king they're sort of the takeover or the the the
Speaker:Track 1: uh handing over to chadwick boseman as the black panther t'challa and through a sort of, you know,
Speaker:Track 1: a fighting, what's the term?
Speaker:Track 2: Challenge.
Speaker:Track 1: A challenging scenario where someone else in another one of the tribes can challenge,
Speaker:Track 1: and if they continue and they're victorious, then, you know, he becomes the king.
Speaker:Track 1: And really, yeah, I don't know, I feel like the first...
Speaker:Track 1: 30 minutes of the movie you could maybe still kind of see him being like this
Speaker:Track 1: is still has a decent enough message but i feel like it's quickly undercut by
Speaker:Track 1: once he becomes king and we learn,
Speaker:Track 1: i'll give one of like the quotes that i think kind of gives it away is we learn
Speaker:Track 1: a little bit later that the michael b jordan character is uh killmonger and
Speaker:Track 1: he is sort of eventually challenges him for the throne later on.
Speaker:Track 1: And what he wants to do is actually share this wealth or this technology with
Speaker:Track 1: all the revolutionary movements around the world to overthrow the colonizer,
Speaker:Track 1: which would be a good thing.
Speaker:Track 1: And one of the lines that T'Challa says in it that I think speaks to a lot of
Speaker:Track 1: this is he says, we could lose our way of life.
Speaker:Track 1: And he says this to his mother, I believe, when they're talking about the possibility of sharing this.
Speaker:Track 1: And to me, that's like the super liberal message that's under like undercuts
Speaker:Track 1: everything where god forbid we would like have socialism because like i might lose my way of life.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah that's like the weird thing about the film
Speaker:Track 3: messaging wise because like because i don't
Speaker:Track 3: like hate this movie i know i sound like i hate this movie but
Speaker:Track 3: like i have a love-hate relationship with it where i love
Speaker:Track 3: that it is like firmly 100 like
Speaker:Track 3: afrofuturism and like it served
Speaker:Track 3: as like a very strong introduction to the concept
Speaker:Track 3: of afrofuturism there's like oh we're
Speaker:Track 3: showing like african diaspora people or black diaspora people like interacting
Speaker:Track 3: with technology in ways that are like seemingly incongruous and like we're interrogating
Speaker:Track 3: the relationship that group of people has had to technology in history and the
Speaker:Track 3: current time and into the future.
Speaker:Track 3: And like it did really interesting things where it's like interrogating the idea of like,
Speaker:Track 3: no, Africa actually is like this very advanced country that we just have historicized
Speaker:Track 3: and kind of like decided is like more, quote unquote,
Speaker:Track 3: savage and underdeveloped when in reality they have all of this cool stuff.
Speaker:Track 3: Stuff and just like interrogating that idea of
Speaker:Track 3: what we consider to be like a quote-unquote advanced
Speaker:Track 3: society in relation to blackness but
Speaker:Track 3: then it does weird things where they're like hyper traditionalistic
Speaker:Track 3: in like a weird patriarchal way it's like i don't i think you guys losing your
Speaker:Track 3: traditions would be kind of okay but i don't think you should have a king where
Speaker:Track 3: the person can just beat up your king and become a king and that's considered
Speaker:Track 3: like a cool way to rule your advanced country,
Speaker:Track 3: so it's like so thematically confused that way.
Speaker:Track 2: It really is like, it's such a, like, it's a both a forward thinking and like
Speaker:Track 2: wanting to like portray the, you know, the people in the culture and, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: and the country as being futuristic.
Speaker:Track 2: You know, like you said, it's Afrofuturist, which is, it's, and it's awesome
Speaker:Track 2: the way they present it, the aesthetics,
Speaker:Track 2: the, the, the, the seamlessness, which that he really does present very traditional, you know, um,
Speaker:Track 2: well, the culture, you know, the dance and costume, costume,
Speaker:Track 2: but like traditional attire with that futuristic stuff at the same time is beautiful.
Speaker:Track 2: Full but at the same time it's like i'm like i don't mean to slight ryan coogler but like.
Speaker:Track 2: It's i feel like it's still got that like and i
Speaker:Track 2: don't know whether it was his decision or whether it was somebody else or
Speaker:Track 2: whether it was taken from the comic because i never really read black panther
Speaker:Track 2: i wasn't like a marvel i'm not a huge marvel fan that like
Speaker:Track 2: the western thing it's like you know what african country
Speaker:Track 2: is like yeah you know what they can get as far advanced they're
Speaker:Track 2: still gonna they're still gonna resort to you know what it's it's
Speaker:Track 2: a king and one guy could beat up the other guy and became the king it
Speaker:Track 2: still feels so like i mean really i mean for black
Speaker:Track 2: people like it feels racist and it feels backwards
Speaker:Track 2: and like paternalistic in its like presentation it's like look at look these
Speaker:Track 2: people no matter how no matter how far advanced they're still gonna beat each
Speaker:Track 2: other up and it just it takes away from like any it's like two steps forward ten steps back it.
Speaker:Track 3: Every time it's like matriarchal but also
Speaker:Track 3: it's not and it's super advanced but also
Speaker:Track 3: they still use spears for combat and
Speaker:Track 3: it's like it's very strange where it's like i get what you're trying to do but
Speaker:Track 3: it always seems to go back to like what you were saying where like it's through
Speaker:Track 3: the gaze of what a white person in America thinks Africa is.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: And then they're just that, but also they're cyberpunk now.
Speaker:Track 3: And like, I really wish it was what black people or what Africans think cyberpunk is.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker:Track 1: To me, that's the result of, I think, if Coogler could make this movie outside
Speaker:Track 1: of Marvel and Disney, I think it would want a different film.
Speaker:Track 1: But Disney has to sell their movies to the whitest audience.
Speaker:Track 1: Not the whitest, also the whitest, but also the whitest, right, across the world.
Speaker:Track 1: So the way they have to create these movies is palatable to everyone,
Speaker:Track 1: and I think it suffers from that.
Speaker:Track 1: Like, there's another line that I think is also, like, an indictment of it is
Speaker:Track 1: when we learn, like, what the king had done, you know, as to,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, killing his own brother back in the United States,
Speaker:Track 1: I think he says it's, or someone says it, it's hard for a good man to be king.
Speaker:Track 1: And, like, I feel like the idea of, like, oh the king not being actually a good
Speaker:Track 1: person and all of the things again sort of undercuts the message where Wakanda
Speaker:Track 1: is trying to be this new just place but um,
Speaker:Track 1: I'm not sure where I was going with that exactly. I don't know.
Speaker:Track 1: It's, again, undercutting what it's trying to be.
Speaker:Track 1: And I like to try and not blame Ryan Coogler directly. I think he made what
Speaker:Track 1: he was able to. He did what he could.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, like, you know, Ryan Coogler is anti-colonialism because he made Sinners
Speaker:Track 3: and he had way more creative control over that one.
Speaker:Track 3: So, like, I'm not blaming him as a writer or director.
Speaker:Track 3: I just think he was on a leash with the studio where, like, I'm glad he is making
Speaker:Track 3: his own stuff now because that being the biggest budget Ryan Coogler joints
Speaker:Track 3: people can get would be very unfortunate. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: But I do think it is like one of the better films that you could watch from Marvel still.
Speaker:Track 3: So it's one of those relative questions.
Speaker:Track 2: Totally. I mean, I feel like you can see the points of the movie as you're watching it.
Speaker:Track 2: You can actually pick out the parts where there has been studio oversight.
Speaker:Track 2: Like you can if you go through this movie you can you could highlight scenes
Speaker:Track 2: and be like oh this was a studio note this was a studio note this was this is
Speaker:Track 2: coogler this is coogler like you know you could literally go through it and
Speaker:Track 2: like point out like all the different points i feel like.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah and i'm looking for a specific artist who i keep thinking of um oh yeah yumbi,
Speaker:Track 3: so air biumby he's cameroonian have
Speaker:Track 3: you guys heard of him before um not sure
Speaker:Track 3: i know he's like a black modern artist
Speaker:Track 3: who like delves into afrofuturism but
Speaker:Track 3: he has like this whole like setup where
Speaker:Track 3: he interrogates like modern culture as seen
Speaker:Track 3: through like an african lens so he
Speaker:Track 3: has like this entire like not performance but
Speaker:Track 3: like this entire piece where it's traditional african garb
Speaker:Track 3: but it looks like the scream mask from scream
Speaker:Track 3: or like the prayer where it's
Speaker:Track 3: just like no africans like still exist we're still interacting with
Speaker:Track 3: modern culture we're like not stagnant in
Speaker:Track 3: the past the way america views africa
Speaker:Track 3: and i really just wish they had him as an artistic director for the movie i
Speaker:Track 3: feel like that would be awesome because he does a lot of That Afrofuturist idea
Speaker:Track 3: of like interrogating how the African diaspora is viewed like temporally and
Speaker:Track 3: like how we do exist in the present day and we will exist in the future.
Speaker:Track 3: And like we continue interacting with cultures that aren't our own,
Speaker:Track 3: but like continue preserving our own culture as well.
Speaker:Track 3: Which seems to be what this movie like on a good day is trying to get across
Speaker:Track 3: but just is by a lot of stuff.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah that's what that's that seems to be the attempt which like which is why
Speaker:Track 2: like i do think that this like it does deserve credit to some degree for those
Speaker:Track 2: things like Because, I mean, let's be honest,
Speaker:Track 2: mainstream-wise, this is the mainstream American audience.
Speaker:Track 2: This is the opening to that.
Speaker:Track 2: This is the opportunity, this was the opportunity for the mainstream American
Speaker:Track 2: audience to be exposed to that.
Speaker:Track 2: It was really the first time a mainstream American audience was exposed to those concepts.
Speaker:Track 2: These people were not – people that –,
Speaker:Track 2: prefer like you know the people that you
Speaker:Track 2: know primarily view you know movies like
Speaker:Track 2: the you know like marvel cinematic movies or you know like
Speaker:Track 2: mainstream blockbuster movies like out like
Speaker:Track 2: they're not going to be exposed to this
Speaker:Track 2: elsewhere otherwise like it i do
Speaker:Track 2: think that this deserves credit for that if
Speaker:Track 2: nothing else it did open that
Speaker:Track 2: open an audience up to those things now i
Speaker:Track 2: don't have numbers on like how many people like went out to like you know really
Speaker:Track 2: like engage with that after futurism but like it was more than before this i
Speaker:Track 2: have to assume because it literally wasn't available to people outside of like
Speaker:Track 2: people who made it a point to seek it out.
Speaker:Track 3: Let.
Speaker:Track 1: Me ask you do you know a lot about books and like in this kind of thing did
Speaker:Track 1: you do was there an increase of those kind of books that explored those themes
Speaker:Track 1: like in the years after this and is it at all possible that they were influenced
Speaker:Track 1: by this i mean this is i don't know if there's like this isn't a scientific study.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah that's a good question actually there's been like a whole debate,
Speaker:Track 3: like in like literature in general
Speaker:Track 3: about like the difference between african futurism
Speaker:Track 3: and afro futurism and then like afro-surrealism is
Speaker:Track 3: also in there and i feel like the debate got
Speaker:Track 3: a lot louder after black panther first came out because we have like a bunch
Speaker:Track 3: of authors who are like pretty firmly writing african futurism where like it's
Speaker:Track 3: set in africa and like based in like,
Speaker:Track 3: traditionally african ideas and then
Speaker:Track 3: we have people doing afrofuturism where it's much more like black
Speaker:Track 3: american stuff yeah and we're like trying
Speaker:Track 3: to figure out how those relate to each other in a lot of ways where like i feel
Speaker:Track 3: like there's a lot of non-fiction that's come out since this movie that like
Speaker:Track 3: goes more into afrofuturism more than anything which is super interesting because
Speaker:Track 3: like when was the idea coined it was like the 90s i think.
Speaker:Track 2: Uh i think so but it.
Speaker:Track 3: Might insult the internet let's see.
Speaker:Track 2: It is an interesting note that it is 1993.
Speaker:Track 3: Yep 1993 where we're like just starting to get the idea and like i have not
Speaker:Track 3: studied it as much as i want to I feel like there's a giant overlap between
Speaker:Track 3: that and Black American people loving mech anime.
Speaker:Track 2: Totally.
Speaker:Track 3: And that just being a catalyst for Afrofuturism, at least in the States.
Speaker:Track 3: Because so many Afrofuturist things that are coming out now are pretty much
Speaker:Track 3: just mech anime. And I love it.
Speaker:Track 2: There's actually a really awesome, and this is African Futurist.
Speaker:Track 2: Um it is an rpg a complete it's a ttrpg setting um into the motherland but it's
Speaker:Track 2: specifically is african futurist and it is like really awesome um it's not big mechs yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Like for what's it called like the black panther wakanda like mini series like
Speaker:Track 3: that taps way more into like cyberpunk too.
Speaker:Track 2: Ironheart, which is the spinoff of the second movie.
Speaker:Track 3: Yes. So there's so much like interesting...
Speaker:Track 3: Multicultural things going on with specifically afrofuturism
Speaker:Track 3: where it's heavily inspired by international media
Speaker:Track 3: and like there's a bunch of interesting stuff going
Speaker:Track 3: on that i don't think would be talked about as much had
Speaker:Track 3: this movie not come out so i do appreciate this
Speaker:Track 3: movie for like starting that conversation like nobody's
Speaker:Track 3: gonna be like getting an intro to afrofuturism by
Speaker:Track 3: watching like crumbs or like jesus
Speaker:Track 3: shows you the way to the highway or whatever that movie's called and like those
Speaker:Track 3: are both really cool movies they're not an intro to afro-fanturism though and
Speaker:Track 3: i think this movie works as a good intro and like i've come to appreciate it
Speaker:Track 3: in that way i just really hope people watch and read more after this one too totally.
Speaker:Track 2: I do think it's an interesting i think it's interesting that you say that there
Speaker:Track 2: was an uptick in non-fiction specifically about it which I find very interesting because that's still,
Speaker:Track 2: it's siloing that concept from the mainstream public still. And it's like, is that deliberate?
Speaker:Track 2: Like, is that a institutional, is that a cultural mechanism that is keeping
Speaker:Track 2: it still siloed away from the general public by, it's like, okay, you know what?
Speaker:Track 2: This is becoming popular, but we're, you know, through, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: indirect, you know, like, you know, not like direct means, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: I'm not trying to be like a conspiracy theorist. Um, but like, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: Okay, we can play in this area, but you have to do it in this way because we
Speaker:Track 2: don't want it to break out to the general public, really.
Speaker:Track 2: I think it's a very interesting, like you said, it's mostly nonfiction.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, it's a lot of people going back into the film and literary canon and trying
Speaker:Track 3: to figure out when it first became more of a thing.
Speaker:Track 3: And there's literally a short story by W.E.
Speaker:Track 3: Du Bois that counts as Afrofuturism. So like it goes back a while.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: So it's a lot of people just going back and like marveling at the fact that
Speaker:Track 3: black diaspora writers have been doing speculative fiction, which I love because
Speaker:Track 3: I'm a black speculative fiction writer.
Speaker:Track 3: But it has been like kind of academically siloed where like it's still considered very niche.
Speaker:Track 3: And I guess to get more into the conspiracy theory element of it,
Speaker:Track 3: the entire point of Afrofuturism is affirming the fact that Black people not
Speaker:Track 3: only exist into the future, but are relevant and important.
Speaker:Track 3: And people don't like to hear that a lot of the time. So now...
Speaker:Track 2: That's why Star Trek, Uhuru, that was a big thing. And why it was...
Speaker:Track 2: For all of his flaws, and Gene Roddenberry had many fucking flaws,
Speaker:Track 2: he made it a point, and Nishan Nicholson made it a point to be like,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, black people, we are in the future.
Speaker:Track 2: We are part of the future. and you know like i
Speaker:Track 2: am a major character you know and it is important that this character
Speaker:Track 2: be represented and be portrayed and be in
Speaker:Track 2: this you know show in this way and you
Speaker:Track 2: know even star trek which is huge you
Speaker:Track 2: know and a cultural like touch zone still fights
Speaker:Track 2: against that the fact like you said people don't
Speaker:Track 2: like being like oh yeah black people will exist in the future too still
Speaker:Track 2: fighting against that i mean there's a new star
Speaker:Track 2: trek show right now and people are all up in arms because it's too quote unquote
Speaker:Track 2: woke because you know one of the characters you know because too many of the
Speaker:Track 2: characters like too many characters
Speaker:Track 2: are black or not white you know it's yeah constant struggle yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: It's it is a struggle i'm not at the point where i'm like an afro pessimist
Speaker:Track 3: i think but like Like, I'm getting there at this point.
Speaker:Track 2: I've never heard that term used.
Speaker:Track 3: Essentially, the idea of it is that, like, the entire concept of being black
Speaker:Track 3: is synonymous with being a slave and synonymous with being inhuman to other people.
Speaker:Track 3: And, like, that's the whole idea. And, like, there's just no getting out of
Speaker:Track 3: it and no getting better.
Speaker:Track 2: That's the way it's always presented and everything.
Speaker:Track 3: So it's a very snagged philosophy. And like Afrofuturism is in a lot of ways
Speaker:Track 3: the exact antithesis of that,
Speaker:Track 3: where it's like depicting blackness as something independent of how other people
Speaker:Track 3: view it and like independent of how like people of other races interact with
Speaker:Track 3: black diaspora people, which is, again,
Speaker:Track 3: why Martin Freeman's character being in this movie is obnoxious, by the way.
Speaker:Track 3: And then because like we're kind of running out of time, I think,
Speaker:Track 3: but I think that would also be a good segue to talk about the weird cluster
Speaker:Track 3: that is the plot of the second one where like, yes,
Speaker:Track 3: black diasporic people against indigenous people for some reason.
Speaker:Track 3: Like, I don't know what's going on with that plot.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah, to take it to go to the second one,
Speaker:Track 1: I think that probably the three of us would agree mostly that the first one
Speaker:Track 1: has its moments and has potential and did more for culture probably than it
Speaker:Track 1: had all rights to do as a Marvel movie.
Speaker:Track 1: But then we have the second one which
Speaker:Track 1: unfortunately comes on the heels of chadwick boseman's
Speaker:Track 1: death and having to rewrite the film and as
Speaker:Track 1: bill said earlier it feels like everyone is like grieving him
Speaker:Track 1: in the film and in real life you know
Speaker:Track 1: and it maybe impacts their performance angela bassett is
Speaker:Track 1: incredibly she got an oscar nomination for this
Speaker:Track 1: i think is the only actor to be nominated from an mcu movie in an actor category
Speaker:Track 1: but the plot is nonsensical and i struggle to make it through re-watching it
Speaker:Track 1: honestly i feel like i had memory hold everything that happened and i'm watching
Speaker:Track 1: i'm like wait what but there's still 35 more minutes left but why yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: I like to also memory hold the plot of this one.
Speaker:Track 2: I re-watched this movie while aquascaping an aquarium just so i had something else to do.
Speaker:Track 3: It seems like because like on one hand it's very
Speaker:Track 3: impressive that they were able to completely rewrite
Speaker:Track 3: a movie without the main character in it and like
Speaker:Track 3: have it be somewhat coherent and like it being kind
Speaker:Track 3: of like this time capsule of like the casting crew
Speaker:Track 3: like grieving like a very real person who is
Speaker:Track 3: very important to them i think makes this
Speaker:Track 3: movie like more relevant than
Speaker:Track 3: what the movie is actually about because like
Speaker:Track 3: i kind of feel weird that like chad with boseman's
Speaker:Track 3: like memorial movie is one where black people and like aztec coded indigenous
Speaker:Track 3: people are like fighting over resources whereas that plot is like so not connected
Speaker:Track 3: to the grief plot or like or like the moving into the future plot it.
Speaker:Track 2: Made me so angry like this
Speaker:Track 2: movie i watched this movie and i it was
Speaker:Track 2: like literally it was like they were like you know what let's have
Speaker:Track 2: the brown people fight each other and i'm just like i'm going
Speaker:Track 2: to explode with rage what is like that
Speaker:Track 2: is you were like you know what we started with the french lady and the french
Speaker:Track 2: deserve zero credit for anything ever and like she was the one who was like
Speaker:Track 2: basically accusing wakanda of like invading like take attacking their ship and frankly France,
Speaker:Track 2: any African nation should have the right to do whatever the.
Speaker:Track 3: Fuck they.
Speaker:Track 2: Want to anything of yours fuck all of you fuck France and then it turned into now the the the,
Speaker:Track 2: Do they ever actually give Namor's people a name as a group of people?
Speaker:Track 3: I think they do like once. It starts with like a team.
Speaker:Track 2: They are not, they don't even like, they barely even like give them a,
Speaker:Track 2: they are just, they're just the indigenous enemy.
Speaker:Track 2: And it's like this along with Killmonger is in a long line of,
Speaker:Track 2: of Marvel Disney movies, making a villain that is correct.
Speaker:Track 2: They're right. Like Namor is right in terms of like his, like,
Speaker:Track 2: Being like, you know, these people are bad and they're going to destroy things
Speaker:Track 2: and they're going to kill my people.
Speaker:Track 2: Just like Killmonger was fucking right. Like, and they were like,
Speaker:Track 2: well, we have this villain who is clearly actually morally correct.
Speaker:Track 2: So let's have them fight Wakanda. And it's like, why?
Speaker:Track 2: Why would these people fight each other? It makes zero sense.
Speaker:Track 2: There's other than the fact that disney wanted people
Speaker:Track 2: to fight and they can't have them fight france which is the enemy that they
Speaker:Track 2: should have been fucking fighting or america better they were just fighting
Speaker:Track 2: yeah like if they had just fought the people the imperialists doing the shit
Speaker:Track 2: that would have made sense what.
Speaker:Track 1: This almost feels like to me is this weird version of what American sort of
Speaker:Track 1: elite capitalist class wants to have happen.
Speaker:Track 1: They want culture wars to be fought between people who are actually the enemy.
Speaker:Track 1: They actually have common ground with the oppressor, and yet they're stuck fighting
Speaker:Track 1: each other because, you know, they've convinced them of such.
Speaker:Track 1: But it does that without acknowledging that in any way.
Speaker:Track 3: That's.
Speaker:Track 1: What makes me also.
Speaker:Track 3: They have this like obsession that was
Speaker:Track 3: like hinted at in the first movie and then
Speaker:Track 3: like expanded on in the second one to
Speaker:Track 3: a giant extent of like depicting wakanda as a villainous nation and i don't
Speaker:Track 3: understand their reasoning really like i get the idea of like we don't want
Speaker:Track 3: it to be like this utopian society like we want it to be a real place with like
Speaker:Track 3: flaws that has to evolve with the times.
Speaker:Track 3: They, for some reason, are constantly pitting Wakanda against people where Wakanda
Speaker:Track 3: is the one in the wrong doing the bad thing, like being colonialist,
Speaker:Track 3: essentially, which is a weird thing to do.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Track 3: That they're an isolationist colony that exists because they didn't want to be colonized.
Speaker:Track 2: It's the portraying the DPRK as the villain, as the aggressor and things.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like they're no they're not like like.
Speaker:Track 3: It just like reminds me of every they're literally minding their own business
Speaker:Track 3: it reminds me of like every harry potter adaptation where like they decide to
Speaker:Track 3: make people in slytherin like black it's like that's like the racist group like
Speaker:Track 3: what are you doing it's like why are we making wakanda the stand-in for colonialist.
Speaker:Track 2: Here in.
Speaker:Track 3: Like every conflict.
Speaker:Track 2: Like you could tell such an
Speaker:Track 2: interesting story and kugler is clearly
Speaker:Track 2: a director with the ability but
Speaker:Track 2: not only just the ability but the the the ideological like
Speaker:Track 2: mindset to tell that story like he could tell that story clearly and yet because
Speaker:Track 2: this is a disney movie because this is a marvel movie it's impossible are either
Speaker:Track 2: of you familiar with the comics code authority all right so you will have to remind.
Speaker:Track 3: Me of the details but i know the gist.
Speaker:Track 2: Okay so back in the day when like you know um comics were you know like 25 cents
Speaker:Track 2: or less um there was a major like legal showdown basically and it was about how like comics are like.
Speaker:Track 2: Tainting the youth and so part
Speaker:Track 2: of the comic code authority like to be um certified as
Speaker:Track 2: you know like passing the code like you know there were things you
Speaker:Track 2: couldn't do in the stories so you
Speaker:Track 2: couldn't it's very similar to the same
Speaker:Track 2: code that was in the movies where it was like if a
Speaker:Track 2: cop is bad you can't show he
Speaker:Track 2: has to be just the only bad one um you
Speaker:Track 2: can't like disrespect the police you can't
Speaker:Track 2: disrespect the military you can't portray this
Speaker:Track 2: particular kind of violence you can't portray this that and
Speaker:Track 2: the other thing and over time eventually comics
Speaker:Track 2: left that behind but in a lot of ways it feels like the disney marvel movies
Speaker:Track 2: like are still beholden to that it's like you can't portray america as the bad
Speaker:Track 2: guy you can't portray any western nation as the bad guy it's like you know
Speaker:Track 2: Googler tries his very hardest at the very beginning to paint and make it clear,
Speaker:Track 2: actually, France is the bad guy here.
Speaker:Track 2: They sent mercenaries, and it's like, oh, we've got to backtrack that.
Speaker:Track 2: We've got to backtrack that and go all the way back. And even though the American
Speaker:Track 2: scientists are doing what they say they weren't doing, and they're infringing upon these things.
Speaker:Track 2: Actually, the conflict is now between Wakanda and Namor and his people.
Speaker:Track 2: Because we can't portray any of these people in a negative light. It's just not allowed.
Speaker:Track 1: But from what I understand, the plot development for this film was different
Speaker:Track 1: before the passing of Jack McBoseman.
Speaker:Track 1: Now, what I wonder is, was this still kind of like the crux of it?
Speaker:Track 1: Like, was there still going to be this showdown?
Speaker:Track 1: The difference would have been that he's king during this and like they're not
Speaker:Track 1: having that sort of mourning aspect and it's still the same.
Speaker:Track 1: Even if that's true, they're collaborating even more deeply with Martin Freeman
Speaker:Track 1: and the CIA, where he's giving them like material information.
Speaker:Track 1: Albeit, you're meant to sort of be like, well, he's actually like helping them.
Speaker:Track 1: But another insanity aspect of this, they have this entire fight on this giant
Speaker:Track 1: sort of ship in the ocean near the end.
Speaker:Track 1: And yet the U.S. government like doesn't know about it.
Speaker:Track 2: It's so like, I'm sorry. It's so non-sequitur. It's just like, what are we doing?
Speaker:Track 1: That part of the movie, I'm just like, why? What? What's going on here?
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, like the entire, literally the entire conflict in that second movie just
Speaker:Track 3: feels like they had the old scripts and they didn't want to trash it entirely.
Speaker:Track 3: So they just like slipped those scenes in there just like with minimal to no
Speaker:Track 3: context because they like hired the stunt choreographer already or something.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, maybe.
Speaker:Track 2: The only thing I will say about this movie, the only positive thing I will say
Speaker:Track 2: about this movie, is that I do think that the costuming and the design of Namor
Speaker:Track 2: is absolutely gorgeous.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, absolutely incredible.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, when I saw, like, the sneak peek character, like, photo thing for Namor,
Speaker:Track 3: I was like, yes. Hell yes, that one.
Speaker:Track 2: So like i.
Speaker:Track 3: Was excited going into the second movie because i thought like oh they're gonna
Speaker:Track 3: take what was good and it's gonna be better now and that didn't happen.
Speaker:Track 2: No they did the opposite that's the thing it's so it's so they took all the
Speaker:Track 2: bad then turned it up to 11 we even have more we have more scenes in this of
Speaker:Track 2: just straight up american government like black ops shenanigans Like,
Speaker:Track 2: I don't want, I don't care.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't. Martin Freeman should not be in these movies. I should not see a single, unless he's,
Speaker:Track 2: Unless he's like a fucking villain, I shouldn't see a single fucking white person.
Speaker:Track 2: That's straight up. That's my feeling on it.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, like the first movie, like they had like the Afrikaner dude who was definitely
Speaker:Track 3: alive during apartheid.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Who could have just been the bad guy.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah. I mean, the thing that makes me sad too is they give the backstory of
Speaker:Track 1: their people and how they were created.
Speaker:Track 1: And how or again kind of kind of created and
Speaker:Track 1: them killing their oppressors you
Speaker:Track 1: know that were making them into slaves and like
Speaker:Track 1: that's good and then it just sort of it doesn't explore that
Speaker:Track 1: in any deeper way and then by them fighting
Speaker:Track 1: wakanda it like undermines that message
Speaker:Track 1: even further and makes me wonder like why even tell us that like the whole backstory
Speaker:Track 1: could have been interesting but in the way it just felt like what we need to
Speaker:Track 1: add like some more you need to like have some interest in caring for them but
Speaker:Track 1: then you almost you're kind of hypocrites i don't know yeah i mean yes and.
Speaker:Track 3: Like it's a lot of they should have been non-violent.
Speaker:Track 1: Completely like the the just you
Speaker:Track 1: know and then when they go to their underwater
Speaker:Track 1: place and like understand what they
Speaker:Track 1: also have to lose like you're like oh well maybe they can
Speaker:Track 1: just form an alliance but then it just sort of ends up being like doing what
Speaker:Track 1: american imperialism would do is you know we're just gonna capture back our
Speaker:Track 1: our you know our queen and not worry about the cost and just like we'll fight
Speaker:Track 1: that war later which is exactly what america would do in that situation which.
Speaker:Track 3: Like again like why are we making the like,
Speaker:Track 3: marooned black colony that escaped colonization america like why are we doing yeah why why.
Speaker:Track 2: Are we doing this i this movie makes me so mad like.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah it like it highlights what i think is like a bigger issue in general that
Speaker:Track 3: i keep running into as someone who like works in film where it's like I don't
Speaker:Track 3: even know if I want people to make these movies at this point,
Speaker:Track 3: if they're going to be this thematically incoherent.
Speaker:Track 3: It's just like, I give the first movie a pass, right? Oh, it's a good intro.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: But you can only be a good intro one time. Like, you have to do more after that.
Speaker:Track 1: Will it make you mad if I told you that Ryan Coogler is apparently in development of the third movie?
Speaker:Track 3: Like, I know he is.
Speaker:Track 1: I didn't know that until like an hour ago.
Speaker:Track 2: I did not know that. You got to be kidding me. But like.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, something.
Speaker:Track 1: And that makes me sad because I'm like, you could make sinners.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, I have to assume he's just like, I have to assume he's just like, you know what?
Speaker:Track 2: If I make this movie, I will get paid. It's a payday. And then I can go make,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, my next Sinners.
Speaker:Track 2: And I don't mean a sequel to Sinners. I mean, like, you know.
Speaker:Track 1: I think that's reasonable.
Speaker:Track 2: I mean, another, like, independent movie that he doesn't have to answer to any before. Like, it's.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, I forget. Like, was Sinners produced by his own production company?
Speaker:Track 3: I forget. He has his own production company now. I don't know if that was pre
Speaker:Track 3: or post his movie coming out.
Speaker:Track 2: Production company is proximity media yep it's
Speaker:Track 2: his it's his it was produced by his it was his
Speaker:Track 2: production company it was distributed by warner
Speaker:Track 2: brothers but it was it was the production company is cuckoo's
Speaker:Track 2: production company so yeah i mean like honestly like right i've that's the only
Speaker:Track 2: thing this is the only thing that like i can square this that is like heyday
Speaker:Track 2: next thing i can put in i can just put more money into proximity media and make
Speaker:Track 2: another movie like that like that's it that that's It's the only way I square this in my brain.
Speaker:Track 3: And I'm just generally so ambivalent about the Marvel Cinematic Universe at
Speaker:Track 3: this point, because I don't want to be one of those people who shits on superhero movies as a concept,
Speaker:Track 3: because I don't think all of them are bad.
Speaker:Track 3: I just think it's a very oversaturated market.
Speaker:Track 3: And I'm very annoyed by people who think the Marvel movies started getting bad
Speaker:Track 3: the second they started letting like women in black and brown people direct them.
Speaker:Track 3: So I don't want to be one of those people who was like, this is the beginning
Speaker:Track 3: of the end of Marvel or anything, but it kind of was.
Speaker:Track 2: I think you are actually correct. And why, and this goes back to being a fan of comics.
Speaker:Track 2: Like I've stopped, I stopped reading comics a long time ago.
Speaker:Track 2: And even before I stopped reading comics, I stopped reading mainstream superhero comics.
Speaker:Track 2: And one of the reasons why is the reason I think that the Marvel movies do fail.
Speaker:Track 2: And that is the constant focus
Speaker:Track 2: on quote unquote events and how
Speaker:Track 2: everything ties into everything else where you can't just watch or read one
Speaker:Track 2: book without feeling obligated to watch or read 10 other things you because
Speaker:Track 2: and black panther really is the start of that starting with,
Speaker:Track 2: shuri right in the beginning oh now i have to take care of another white boy
Speaker:Track 2: and it's like Like that is a nod to winter soldier.
Speaker:Track 2: And then from that, like there's other little things that are like sprinkled in those movies.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like, if you didn't watch 10 other movies, you won't know what this means.
Speaker:Track 2: And that's what these movies have become. They're just, every movie is a setup for the next movie.
Speaker:Track 2: That's all it is. I want to just watch a movie. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: And I am cynical about like why Black Panther was like kind of the pinnacle
Speaker:Track 3: of that happening, which is they did not trust Black Panther to like stay on
Speaker:Track 3: its own without having two million Easter eggs to other things in it.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Which just goes back to like, I kind of just don't want Disney and Marvel to
Speaker:Track 3: touch black media at this point.
Speaker:Track 3: But I know it's culturally important. I know giving black creatives money is
Speaker:Track 3: important, but also them as producers is not good.
Speaker:Track 1: And I think that it's used maybe in a way of like the black directors and women
Speaker:Track 1: directors making these.
Speaker:Track 1: They're just being scapegoated as the reason why Marvel is failing.
Speaker:Track 1: And I think it's more than also just simply the fatigue of what you're talking
Speaker:Track 1: about, Bill. So I've mentioned this book before that I'm reading now.
Speaker:Track 1: It's called The Extended Universe.
Speaker:Track 1: And it talks about sort of how Disney has basically ruined movies and taken over the world.
Speaker:Track 1: And it's because of their IP having to stretch through every kind of media, comics, books, movies.
Speaker:Track 1: And so you have to watch and be part of the entire universe to understand everything.
Speaker:Track 1: And people just got tired of that except for like a very small subset of people
Speaker:Track 1: who are obsessed no matter what and they're the loudest they're going to complain
Speaker:Track 1: about everyone oh it's a it's woke is all this stuff and so I want those female
Speaker:Track 1: directors and those black directors and those other directors just,
Speaker:Track 1: Make other projects if you can. I mean, look, it's hard to make movies.
Speaker:Track 1: It's hard to get budgets and all of these things. But I just want them to make
Speaker:Track 1: media that's, you know, that they want to make and not have to fit into the Marvel box.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, it ironically reminds me of, like, the exploitation era of movies in, like, the 70s.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Where, like, so many marginalized directors, like, got their first feature or
Speaker:Track 3: their second feature making an exploitation movie.
Speaker:Track 3: And then they went on to make like other things but like
Speaker:Track 3: that was their intro to like actually getting a budget and like
Speaker:Track 3: actually like getting something for like
Speaker:Track 3: their director reel and everything and i just feel like
Speaker:Track 3: so many directors are treating like cinematic
Speaker:Track 3: marvel cinematic universe movies like that now
Speaker:Track 3: i'm going to direct this movie and then
Speaker:Track 3: i'm gonna go and do something else like
Speaker:Track 3: chloe zau did that with like was it the marvels yeah and she won an oscar and
Speaker:Track 3: it's probably going to win another oscar so it's a good like talent incubator
Speaker:Track 3: and like i wish they would let the talent they're incubating that's fair do more stuff but.
Speaker:Track 2: At the same time this argument is still the same argument about how representation
Speaker:Track 2: within a system of oppression does not solve that oppression.
Speaker:Track 2: Like that, this is still that we're still at that point. The like, because yes, they may,
Speaker:Track 2: They may be able to go on and make their own,
Speaker:Track 2: but like the, there's this system is still being fed through that exploitation
Speaker:Track 2: and oppression and their work later on is still never capable of reaching the heights.
Speaker:Track 2: It should because of the existing system, which is reinforced by their contributions to it in a way.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, you're feeding the beast that is going to eat you in the end.
Speaker:Track 2: And yes, you may get something out of it, but in the end, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: representation does not solve oppression, right?
Speaker:Track 2: Representation is important and it's valuable, but it does not solve oppression.
Speaker:Track 2: It does not do that. And we can see that through any number of,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, elected political figures and so on and so forth, you know,
Speaker:Track 2: because that's exactly where we are.
Speaker:Track 3: And that is like the tough thing about it, because like you can tell Ryan Coogler
Speaker:Track 3: knows that that's the case.
Speaker:Track 3: Because he had that deal with sinners where he's like, I'm going to own this
Speaker:Track 3: movie and like you guys are not going to own this movie.
Speaker:Track 3: Where, like, he clearly has some idea in his head about, like,
Speaker:Track 3: marginalized people being able to, like, own and have authority over the stories they're telling.
Speaker:Track 3: And, like, not have it be filtered through, like, a system or a structure that
Speaker:Track 3: is, like, inherently othering them.
Speaker:Track 3: Like, he gets that. And, like, I just feel bad.
Speaker:Track 2: But then he went, I know he's doing Black Panther 3.
Speaker:Track 3: I just feel like pretentious being like, I feel bad for millionaire director Ryan.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: But I kind of just do feel bad where I feel like he's just like between a rock
Speaker:Track 3: and a hard place at this point where like.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, we all are.
Speaker:Track 2: Have you heard it here first? Brianna Cox feels bad for Ryan Coogler,
Speaker:Track 2: millionaire director, Oscar, Oscar winner.
Speaker:Track 2: I do think, I do think that one thing that needs to be said about the first
Speaker:Track 2: movie is that it is literally the story of an insurgent taking over a country.
Speaker:Track 2: Or not an insurgent, but like a revolutionary taking over a country and then
Speaker:Track 2: the CIA funding and supporting the, the, uh,
Speaker:Track 2: preferable group to take over instead or like, or maintain power.
Speaker:Track 2: Um, it is literally beat for beat. Like it is basically the Taliban.
Speaker:Track 2: Like that's what it is. I mean, it's, it's Afghanistan and Taliban.
Speaker:Track 2: That's what it is. They, they, they funded of the Mujahideen and they were like,
Speaker:Track 2: you take over the socialist government.
Speaker:Track 2: Like that's a revolutionary took over. The CIA was like, no,
Speaker:Track 2: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not happening.
Speaker:Track 2: But like, again, like, just like you said, Brianna, it's about like the second movie.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like, yeah, these things are there, but like, they're never like explicitly pointed out.
Speaker:Track 2: So it gets lost. And it's the same thing. It's like, if you know these things,
Speaker:Track 2: you can see all this in this,
Speaker:Track 2: but if you don't, none of these points or lessons are being learned by anyone
Speaker:Track 2: unless you're already a Marxist. Like, yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, that's like an issue I have with the Marvel Universe in general,
Speaker:Track 3: where it ostensibly takes place in the real world.
Speaker:Track 2: Yep.
Speaker:Track 3: They're just in New York, and they're in London, and they're in Seoul.
Speaker:Track 3: So the history of these places happened, presumably.
Speaker:Track 3: So again, they had an Afrikaner who was alive during apartheid and probably
Speaker:Track 3: did a genocide be the secondary bad guy in the first bloodbath.
Speaker:Track 2: The secondary bad guy, the secondary bad guy, the main bad guy being a black guy.
Speaker:Track 3: And like they never touch on that. They never touch on that.
Speaker:Track 3: Like he's from a place that had apartheid and he probably did a genocide.
Speaker:Track 3: They never touch on the CIA's weird relationship with Africa in general and
Speaker:Track 3: the black diaspora in America specifically.
Speaker:Track 3: They kind of just like have it
Speaker:Track 3: exist in this world where like real
Speaker:Track 3: problems happen but they don't acknowledge it
Speaker:Track 3: because they still want to do like cool speculative fiction
Speaker:Track 3: stuff but like you can't have cool
Speaker:Track 3: speculative fiction stuff in an
Speaker:Track 3: african country with an insurgent group trying to take it
Speaker:Track 3: over and not reference african history
Speaker:Track 3: yeah which they're trying very hard not to
Speaker:Track 3: do which i know like people do
Speaker:Track 3: not like dc and they don't like those movies
Speaker:Track 3: but they do not have that problem because that's a
Speaker:Track 3: fake universe that's totally true that's totally true
Speaker:Track 3: yeah it's very distracting in black panther specifically but in winter soldier
Speaker:Track 3: it's also very distracting where it's like hmm so soviet russia huh what was
Speaker:Track 3: going on what was happening like every time they try to tackle,
Speaker:Track 3: any kind of world event it becomes very confusing immediately yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah it's it's and i mean and as we've
Speaker:Track 2: pointed out like you know as these are products of a major multi you know an
Speaker:Track 2: international conglomerate like they're not going to want to they're not going
Speaker:Track 2: to address any of those things because addressing any of those things inevitably
Speaker:Track 2: points out that they are actually the villain Like,
Speaker:Track 2: you can't.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, they cannot do it. It's impossible.
Speaker:Track 3: I just want to rattle off a bunch of other Afrofuturist things that would be cool to watch.
Speaker:Track 2: Yes, please.
Speaker:Track 3: If you like Black Panther aesthetically and you want more stuff.
Speaker:Track 1: Please do.
Speaker:Track 3: But let's see. I think the most successful one is probably Poomsie,
Speaker:Track 3: which is like a 20-minute short film that's just on YouTube and you can watch it whenever.
Speaker:Track 3: It's like a cool, like dystopian short film.
Speaker:Track 3: Then there's Spaces, The Place, which lots of people point to is like one of
Speaker:Track 3: the first like Afrofuturist, like audiovisual things.
Speaker:Track 3: Neptune Frost is one. I think Beast of the Southern Wild is one.
Speaker:Track 3: People argue with me. I think it counts.
Speaker:Track 2: Now, why do people argue with you on that?
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, because it's very fantasy adjacent, and there's a whole argument as to
Speaker:Track 3: whether or not fantasy counts as sci-fi enough to be Afrofuturism.
Speaker:Track 3: It doesn't. But it's like a dystopia, so I don't count.
Speaker:Track 2: As a sci-fi and fantasy person, no, they're separate things. I'm sorry, Brianna.
Speaker:Track 3: It's like a weird combination of magic realism and fantasy in dystopian ways.
Speaker:Track 3: Climate apocalypse stuff so i think it counts all right you know what no.
Speaker:Track 2: You know what you got me on board okay so this is really this is like star wars
Speaker:Track 2: it's a combination of it's it's more fantasy science fiction it's a science fantasy.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah kind of actually all right so i'm on board,
Speaker:Track 3: i'm.
Speaker:Track 2: On board i'm on board it is afrofuturist at that point okay we got both we got both that's fine.
Speaker:Track 3: But yeah that's that's the one on the edge the other ones are much
Speaker:Track 3: more actually that spider verse definitely counts as
Speaker:Track 3: afrofuturism by the way just watch spider verse for
Speaker:Track 3: your afrofuturists like superheroes stuff
Speaker:Track 3: and then jesus shows you the way to the highway was
Speaker:Track 3: the one i referenced before that is a fun movie and then what's our last one
Speaker:Track 3: there's naked reality which is a french movie so go into that knowing it's a
Speaker:Track 3: pretentious french movie but it's also very cool but yeah Yeah, there is a bunch of...
Speaker:Track 1: We need to put the whole list of this stuff in the show notes.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, if you could, you know, make sure you send this over, as well as the artist
Speaker:Track 2: you mentioned earlier, send the name so we can put this in the show notes so
Speaker:Track 2: people can check it all out.
Speaker:Track 2: I will put in the show notes with links so people can check it all out.
Speaker:Track 2: Because definitely, people definitely should. Even French stuff.
Speaker:Track 3: There's one more that I am racking my brain that has fire in the name.
Speaker:Track 3: I know it has flames in the name, but born in flames.
Speaker:Track 3: I'm pretty sure it's called. I'm going to Google it to make sure.
Speaker:Track 3: Yes. Born in flames, 1983.
Speaker:Track 3: It's like this really cool feminist science fiction thing.
Speaker:Track 3: It is badass. And I love that movie. And I always forget what it's called for some reason.
Speaker:Track 2: Awesome. We will make sure that those are in there.
Speaker:Track 1: No, Lizzie Borden. Is that the one you're talking about?
Speaker:Track 2: It's awesome. Yeah. We'll make sure that's all the show notes.
Speaker:Track 2: People could check all that out.
Speaker:Track 2: Um, is there anything else anybody wants to add on for our discussion on black Panther one and two?
Speaker:Track 3: I mean, I guess just summary. I don't hate the first movie.
Speaker:Track 3: I think you should watch it for context if you're going to get into Afrofuturism
Speaker:Track 3: stuff and you can skip the second movie probably.
Speaker:Track 2: Yes you know if you can you know
Speaker:Track 2: if you can find some really awesome like just
Speaker:Track 2: design stills or concept stills from the second movie check those out the the
Speaker:Track 2: costume designing absolutely gorgeous uh i you know i the costume design absolutely
Speaker:Track 2: gorgeous check check out the art concept other than that you should skip the
Speaker:Track 2: skip the second one skip it.
Speaker:Track 1: What wait wait what.
Speaker:Track 2: There isn't a second We're not playing that game.
Speaker:Track 1: I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker:Track 3: Oh, thank God. That's good.
Speaker:Track 2: I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. People do that about Pacific Rim,
Speaker:Track 2: too, and it denotes the crap out of me.
Speaker:Track 1: But I agree with all those thoughts.
Speaker:Track 2: Before we head off, Brianna, you want to plug anything? I mean,
Speaker:Track 2: I know what you want to plug. Plug your book.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah, sure. So I have a horror novel that is out for pre-order now.
Speaker:Track 3: If you want the e-book or the paperback, the audio book is coming out probably
Speaker:Track 3: on the release date on March 20th, if you prefer audio books.
Speaker:Track 3: But it's a cool, fun, black horror book about cannibalism and vampires, and you should read it.
Speaker:Track 2: What's the name?
Speaker:Track 3: Oh, yeah. I totally forgot to say the name. So it was called...
Speaker:Track 3: And you can look up more about that on my website. lianaincoxwriter.com,
Speaker:Track 3: So actual information that will be helpful.
Speaker:Track 2: That will be in the show notes. The link to Brianna's site where you can pre-order
Speaker:Track 2: the book will be in the show notes.
Speaker:Track 2: So please check out the show notes so you can pre-order her book.
Speaker:Track 2: You should do that. You out there in listener land.
Speaker:Track 2: Pre-order Indigent by Brianna Cox, our good friend and awesome guest.
Speaker:Track 3: Yeah. If you get the paperback pre-ordered, it will come with swag and it's
Speaker:Track 3: cool looking. I just got it in the mail.
Speaker:Track 3: So if you want too much merch, you should get the paperback.
Speaker:Track 1: Yes, you should definitely check that out. And Brian, of course,
Speaker:Track 1: always great to have you on Left of Projector.
Speaker:Track 1: You'll listen and find this on leftofprojector.com, wherever you find your podcasts.
Speaker:Track 1: Of course, wherever you're listening right now, you can like and subscribe.
Speaker:Track 1: And check out Brianna's other work. And we'll catch you next time.
